killabeez: (too important)
[personal profile] killabeez
I raise a glass to all of you who have stuck with me thus far—this week marks two years (!!!) we've been doing this. Holy Highlander, Batman.

5.16 Forgive Us Our Trespasses
Original air date: May 5, 1997
Director: Paolo Barzman
Writer: Dom Tordjmann

fuot

Synopsis: An act of revenge Duncan committed in the aftermath of Culloden and his murder of Sean Burns during the Dark Quickening make him the target of Immortal Stephen Keane. Methos and Amanda worry that Duncan will face him believing he deserves to die.

Episode Transcript: is here.

Please share your thoughts and reactions in comments. The master post for all discussion posts is here.

Date: 2016-08-01 12:08 am (UTC)
movingfinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] movingfinger
Could it be a pseudonym? This is such a great story, so in tune with the characters.

Date: 2016-08-01 12:19 am (UTC)
movingfinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] movingfinger
Google turns up one guy of that name, apparently living in CA. It wouldn't be inconceivable for him to have written one script and then gone off to actually earn a living. But it is SUCH a good script! (Maybe extensive rewrites by Tynan or something...)

Date: 2016-08-02 04:29 am (UTC)
jotribe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jotribe
I never knew that. It's fascinating.

Date: 2016-08-01 01:03 am (UTC)
valoise: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valoise
So many quotes in this episode! So many great character moments! The deeper we get into season 5, the more I realize this is the best season of HL and one of my favorite seasons of tv ever.

Date: 2016-08-01 03:23 am (UTC)
dragonfly: stained glass dragonfly in iridescent colors (dragonfly)
From: [personal profile] dragonfly
>this is the best season of HL and one of my favorite seasons of tv ever.

Hear, hear!

Date: 2016-08-01 10:07 am (UTC)
emma_in_dream: (Default)
From: [personal profile] emma_in_dream
Season five is the culmination of HL.

Date: 2016-08-01 04:32 am (UTC)
alethia: (HL Methos Gun)
From: [personal profile] alethia
Two years? Holy crap! I remember when you started these. Amazing.

Love this episode. I love good guys, indeed!

Date: 2016-08-01 07:34 am (UTC)
pat_t: (Methos Bookstore)
From: [personal profile] pat_t
I absolutely love this episode on so many levels. I agree with David though. Was it David who said this? They envisioned someone just like Duncan - good looking, hero. And Duncan being faced with someone just like himself to answer the ethical and moral questions of his behavior. But they got the red-haired guy with the ugly orange coat, and it just didn't work. Although, I think he's an accomplished actor. The look wasn't right for the person they wrote the script for.

We watched this with Adrian, Peter - and Liz (damn, I'm going to have to look at my dvds tomorrow) at the LA Walkabout. I was there and bought the DVD set as well. In any case, in the scene where Methos says "you're such a pain in the ...." and then he shoots Duncan, Peter and Adrian laugh their asses off. Okay, he said either ass or arse. One more thing I have to look up. Not a hardship really. It just means I have to watch the episode.

Date: 2016-08-01 10:09 am (UTC)
emma_in_dream: (otp)
From: [personal profile] emma_in_dream
Interesting, because I like Keenan and he seems like Duncan redux to me. I especially salute using Shaun Burns again, really clever to give a good reason for his actions.

Date: 2016-08-01 06:49 pm (UTC)
movingfinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] movingfinger
You've mentioned comments several times that they wanted to cast Michael Praed, but it looks (from IMDB) as though they never managed it.

Date: 2016-08-01 09:59 pm (UTC)
valoise: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valoise
I know David A.'s talked about this at some convention, I really don't remember which one or if it was PWFC or HLWW. He also said he hated that orange suit that Keane is wearing in the beginning.

Date: 2016-08-02 04:22 am (UTC)
jotribe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jotribe
I'm so happy I had time to watch this episode. I can't believe I missed commenting on the last few – the best string of eps in the entire series. And I love this ep. They were trying to show Keane as a man similar to Mac. But for me, the correlation didn't quite work. But damn Methos had so many great lines in this!

Here's a bunch of my rambling --

Oh Amanda, what a dumb lame attack on Steven Keane. This is the second time they had Amanda screw up in a fight. It really bothers me. For crying out loud, she's 1100 years old! She can't be as inept as they portray her. Bah!

Call me what you will, but I really like seeing Duncan after Culloden. This flashback, especially with the grandmother, was very powerful, leading up to the confrontation with the earl. I thought Adrian did a great job. Duncan threatening a child – that was chilling.

Being in bed with Duncan when he has bad dreams is pretty dangerous!

Duncan: Keane's right about me. I am a murderer.
Amanda: Duncan, that was 250 years ago. Everyone's dead now. The people he killed. The people you killed. And four generations of their children. It's ancient history. It's just over.
Duncan: It's not over.
This was a telling exchange to me. It played up the core differences between Amanda and Duncan. It would be pretty easy to believe what Amanda believes. Because it's really true.

Amanda: You are the best man I know. You make people better. You know. People like me. People who didn't give a damn about anything in their whole lives, until you came along with your big brown eyes and your boyscout rules.

Blue boxers!!! Hot damn! Raise your hand if you read all the stories on the Blue Boxer Brigade website :)

Methos: You want me to talk to MacLeod and tell him 'don't worry, you're not a bad guy.' Trust me Amanda, that's not going to work.
I love Methos' expression here. And he's right. It's not going to work.

I just can't watch this scene without seeing the blooper reel.
Amanda: …He'll die Methos.
Methos: Then we'll get our own show!
Haaaaa!

Methos: …I've come to watch the perfect immortal die.
D: I'm not.
M: Not the perfect immortal? Or not going to die!
We're none of us perfect MacLeod. Not you, not me. Not even Darius.

Methos is serious here. He's brought Darius into this.
M: What Keane hates you for happened. Nothing you do is going to change that. You accept it MacLeod. It's part of who you are.
D: Are we talking about me now?
Oh snap. I love this exchange. I love that the horseman revelations are still so front and center. This is what HL does so well.
M: You know Keane is just like you. He wants to divide the world up into good and bad. Well it's not that simple. We are all both. We are good and evil. We have rage and compassion. We have love and hate. *pause* Murder and forgiveness. Why don't you try forgiving yourself for once.
And then — the gun shot You are such a pain in the ass. LOL!

Keane: Good man? You must not know him very well.
Methos: You would be surprised.
(I always thought that was very loaded)
I didn't believe for even a moment that Mac really would face Methos over swords. Mac's face was begging Methos not to behead Keane. Because Mac *couldn't* fight Methos.

When Keane brings up Sean Burns. OMG. Mac just deflated. His legs just gave out from under him. You could feel his shock and his horror.

Love when Methos comes into the barge and Keane is there.
M: Would you mind putting that down, or were you planning to use it.
K: What makes you think I won't?
M: I'm a student of human nature.
And then when Keane finally leaves and Methos lets out that big sigh of relief I love good guys. Left me smiling big :)

When Amanda says You know there's something different this time. His heart's just not in it.
I can't help but think that yeah, it's the Culloden memories and guilt, but it's also his relationship with Methos.

When Mac says I'm so tired of killing. I'm so tired of deciding who to kill.
This is Mac. He may not want to continue, but he needs to do what he considers his reason for living, protecting the innocent. And to do that he will continue to have to decide life and death issues. I love that he goes to Darius' church to 'talk' to Darius. And that he recognizes parts of himself in Keane.

Love the scene between him and Amanda before the final fight with Keane.
(as an aside, that clip of Jacob Galati walking by the train tracks always give me a huh moment.)
I remember people saying it would have been much more interesting for Keane to have won the fight and decide not to behead Mac.

The whole trial-by-combat scenario is so ridiculous. But I guess that's what Mac lived with for most of his life. It's a glimpse into how immortals really are from olden times even though they are living in the modern world.

D: …We all make mistakes.
M: And we all have mistakes to forgive.
OMG, that look!!

Yikes! I went on and on. It was pent up from not commenting on the last few episodes.
Killa – TWO YEARS!! Thank you! You are amazing!!!!
Edited Date: 2016-08-02 04:25 am (UTC)

Date: 2016-08-06 08:09 pm (UTC)
hafital: (HL - Duncan rooftop)
From: [personal profile] hafital
2 years!!!! holy macaroni

Love this episode, although it's funny I don't remember how flashback laden it actually is. Any excuse to see Duncan in a kilt. Knees! Is it weird that I get excited to see his knees??

This episode brings such a philosophical light to the continuous circle of violence that our history is riddled with, both on a large scale and then personally with each individual.

Duncan and Keane are classic foils for each other. I know the casting is a disappointment, but that actor does a pretty good job even if he is somewhat underwhelming up against AP. And AP really infuses Duncan with a world-weariness that sets up the ahriman arc so well. "I'm so tired of the killing." In this episode, Duncan chooses not to kill Keane, which is what ultimately saves him later on.

I wondered while watching what would Duncan have done if Keane had not chosen to take the out finally at the end of their fight. You can see it on his face, he's waiting to see if Keane will also walk away or if he will have to kill him.

Love every scene between Duncan and Amanda and Methos, both with all 3 or with just 2 of them. I can't watch that scene in Methos's flat between him and Amanda without waiting for PW to break character though haha. Like I'm literally holding my breathe to see if they're going to make it through. :D

I must admit I'm always a tad sad at the end of this episode though, seeing Methos walk away when Duncan and Amanda are being cute.

Also -- I'm sure I've asked this before -- why does Methos have that terrifying limbless giant chicken thing in the corner overlooking his bed???

Also also in case anyone is curious, the song in the dance club at the beginning is Where We Are Happy by The Easter Island Philharmonic.

Oh look I get to use my FUOT icon!

Edited Date: 2016-08-06 08:11 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-08-12 04:35 am (UTC)
featherwizard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] featherwizard
Two years, wow. I remember when this first started, and I was sure I was going to watch every one. How hard can one episode a week be, right? Optimism my old nemesis, we meet again.

Episode commentary typed up in a hurry:
Peter Wingfield is glorious and believable as Methos as always. Everything about Methos is pitch perfect here, including his mistakes. He's just as tired as Duncan of all this killing, but he knows that he doesn't have a choice, really, where Duncan does. Methos has opted out of fighting as much as possible, but while his friends are still waging war he gets pulled in will he or nil he.

Duncan's relationships with Amanda and Methos say interesting things about his moral values. He seems to be consistently AOK with crimes against property, and so views Amanda's unrepentant theft much less seriously than Methos' ancient rapine. This bugged me, but this episode provides a good reason - Duncan's personally suffered a lot more from soldiers looting and pillaging than direct property theft. He could well be imagining Methos as similar to the people who ravaged his homeland, or slaughtered his American-Indian tribe.

He also doesn't hold Amanda's betrayals against her. Is this something he had to get over pre-series, or did he never view her betrayals as seriously as Methos'? Duncan is so allergic to anything that's not complete and total disclosure (except for all the things he fails to bring up to women that they might find important or interesting - Duncan's not nearly as modern or as good a friend as he likes to think) that Amanda's openness could be the basic reason. It still feels like wacky priorities to me, but I guess when you live that long predictibility becomes a virtue in and of itself.

Oh, the flashback. Leaders of armies talking about battles outside while a kid runs around with flag? I...seriously doubt that scene is in any way realistic. Oh Highlander, part of your charm is the completely uneven historical research.

Duncan's baffled expression and headshake during 'I won't run' is perfect. He's so surprised that this random guy expects him to run. He's spent the past few years fighting nigh-weekly battles, why on earth should he run from one more, and from someone who needed Amanda to track him down at that? It's a big moment for his challenger, but just another Tuesday for him. 404 error: Idea not found is written all over his face. And at the end of the episode he neatly encapsulates his essential charm and flaw - Duncan relies on the understanding of people he learned as a kid. It mostly works because the fundamental dominant culture hasn't shifted all that much, but the two Immortals who have lived through massive culture shifts are clearly not as impressed with his reasoning.

Poor Amanda. She totally overreacts to Duncan's moral quandry, but at the same time I can sympathize - Duncan's growing his ability to be nuanced, but it's pretty slow, and I can see how a surprise threat to one of the few sources of stability she keeps around is enough to throw her into an emotional place. She's not exactly starting from an even keel or possessed of much self-restraint to begin with. Methos should have known better than to believe her, but given his current relationship with Duncan, and possibly his latent deathwish, I can see why he'd get confused. And by the end of the episode we see how Amanda's grown and changed over the course of her relationship with Duncan, how she can articulate and understand moral concerns at a fundamental level that she didn't seem to when the show began. It's not Duncan's morality, but it's her's.

The swordfighting is still clearly fake stagefighting, but at least it's energetic, and everyone knows what they're doing! Hurray!

I really wonder if there's some kind of predictable way to tell how long Immortals take to heal from fatal wounds, because Duncan was out for a surprisingly short amount of time. Unless Methos used a quick-metabolizing tranquilizer of some sort?

I love Sean Burns os much. He's the rarest Immortal of all, one who's moved past his own grief and pain to see other people as other people. Does anyone have any good fic recs for him?

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