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antishurtugal_rebornDo you know what love is?
It's a doubt I've had ever since I've seen people criticize romantic relationships in teenage fantasy stories.
and the truth is that I also feel it as an element that is part of the fantasy of power
I just wanted to know and since I've never had a girlfriend, and I don't even plan on having one, well, what better than asking people who surely already have experience in the area.
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Date: 2022-09-12 03:06 am (UTC)That's a really complicated question, and one that doesn't have a simple response.
The Ancient Greek philosophers generally agreed there are 9 different forms that love can take: eros, philia, storge, pragma, ludus, mania, meraki, philautia, and agape. You may recognise some of those words, but in English they would basically be erotic/sexual love, friendship connection, family devotion, mature/long term love, sensual/flirtatious relationship, obsession, creative expression, narcissism, and unconditional altruistic love.
What form of love are you asking about? There is definitely some overlap between the 9 the Greeks wrote about, and I assume based on your post you weren't asking about creative expression or charity, so for the sake of brevity we can boil it down to romantic, sexual, familial, and platonic (friendship) love. Which one of those are you interested in?
Another point, there are many people who do not need or necessarily even want romance or sex in their lives. These people are generally referred to as asexual and aromantic. There are asexual people who want romance, and aromantic who enjoy sex but don't want the emotional connection of a romantic relationship. Like I said, it's a complicated topic.
The criticism people make of relationships in certain stories, for example Inheritance or Twilight, is that rather than being expressions of philia (spiritual connection) or ludus (playful flirting, enjoying each other's company), the protagonists in those stories exhibit eros (lust) and mania (obsession), often in a way that is not reciprocated. Or there is a power imbalance between someone who is older and more powerful (richer, more mature, has more influence, etc., therefore has an unequal amount of control over the other person), or some other "red flag" indicator of a potentially abusive relationship.
Completely aside from the issue of sexual compatibility, some of the signs of a healthy relationship include mutual trust and respect for each other, equality (in terms of, e.g. housework, decision-making, emotional labour, and so on), and mutual delight in the other's joys and successes. I think those three points are the most important ones for any relationship, regardless of if there is a sexual or romantic component. The best fictional relationships demonstrate these three points, the worst ones don't, or demonstrate the opposite.
I'm sorry if this reply is a bit confusing, it IS a rather thorny rabbit hole.
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Date: 2022-09-12 03:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-12 05:30 am (UTC)so, romantic-sexual love. Like I said above, a healthy relationship is based on mutual trust and respect, equality, and sympathetic joy.
I've never had, nor want, a romantic-sexual relationship with anyone, but I can imagine that a big part of it is a strong desire to want to spend time together and be in each other's presence. Aside from the sexual attraction, of course, which tends to be secondary even in highly sexual relationships. After all, the vast majority of your time together is going to be doing things other than having sex, so you need to be able to enjoy each other's company during those times as well.
Going back to something I briefly mentioned in my first comment: sexual compatibility is a big part of a healthy sexual relationship. That is, you have to be able to agree on how large a part of your relationship is based on sexual activity: what kinds of sex, what sort of interpersonal dynamics are okay during sex (e.g. dirty talk, name calling, roleplay, etc.), how often, and so on. Open and honest communication is a foundational pillar of a healthy relationship, especially on the subject of sex.
Someone who has a strong libido and wants to have sex all the time and is constantly thinking about their partner in a sexual way, is not going to be very compatible with someone for whom sex is a "sometimes" activity. That's not to say either partner is "wrong", just that they are not sexually compatible, and any relationship between them will involve lots of compromise and boundary-setting.
On the romantic side of things, I gather that romantic love involves a strong desire to be in each other's presence, to have close physical contact (cuddling, kisses, holding hands, etc. etc.), and to spend time together regardless of the activity.
Expressions of romantic love can come in many forms, I think you would benefit from doing some reading about "the five love languages" and the different ways people can express love for each other.
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Date: 2022-09-12 05:55 am (UTC)But there's no law that says you have to have a romantic or sexual relationship in your life, if it's not what you want, and it's nothing to be ashamed of either. In fact as far as I'm concerned it's just one less painful complication to deal with.
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Date: 2022-09-12 06:48 am (UTC)I think romance, like horror, is deceptively hard to write. There are so many factors at play in a relationship and a balance to strike in making something compelling vs making it healthy. And a lot of the drama that can come from a relationship in the teen romance can be unhealthy, even if it's romantic on paper. Like, giving up a scholarship to your dream college to support your man's rap career seems romantic on paper, but in reality it's kind of a terrible decision that'll lead to resentment.
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Date: 2022-09-12 07:56 am (UTC)Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more...
Low fruit? Yeah, but I'm gonna snag it anyway.
On the subject of love... Toryll's, at the bare minimum, on the right path - personally, I'd wager 'right on the money'. Love's a pretty complicated thing, which isn't helped by the fact that people have various notions on what 'love' is.
If you want the bluntest, most clinical answer, it's a chemical, or chemicals, that's released in your brain based on a few external factors.
If you want an emotional answer... personally, I think it's one of those things where words can't truly encompass truth, and it ends up being one of those paradoxical things where the more abstract and allegorical the description, the closer to Truth it is, whereas the more descriptive on the actual sensations - a more objective truth - is further from Truth.
If that last ramble didn't make any sense, that's fine. It's the first time I put that thought to paper.
...Also, gonna put this here; love isn't necessarily a 'good' thing, despite what media may think. It simply is. People are quite capable of doing terrible things out of love, even without its corrupted forms of Mania and Obsession.
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Date: 2022-09-12 08:01 am (UTC)That was the first place my mind went as well, so I guess we're equally terrible. :p
Oh yeah, in some forms love can be really unhealthy and even dangerous.
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Date: 2022-09-12 07:59 pm (UTC)4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=NIV
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Date: 2022-09-12 08:40 pm (UTC)As far as romantic love in writing goes, I feel like what a lot of writers get wrong is confusing love with the "butterflies" you get in a new relationship. A lot of romances only focus on grand, romantic gestures, and characters feeling a "spark" between them, and treat sex as the end-all, be-all goal of a relationship, without stopping to consider what an ideal romantic relationship looks like for their characters specifically. Which is how a lot of popular romances (Twilight, for example) come across as manipulative and emotionally abusive, because the focus is on the grand gestures the characters are making and the intensity of their feelings (watching someone sleep, valuing a relationship over your own life, attempting suicide when you're apart, controlling behavior under the dubious excuse of "keeping your partner safe," etc.) instead of the trust and mutual respect that are the real foundation of a lasting romantic relationship. But (sexual) love at first sight and showering your love interest with lavish gifts that make them feel uncomfortable are more exciting than small, sentimentally valuable gifts and asking what someone's boundaries are before getting handsy with them, so here we are.
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Date: 2022-09-15 02:31 pm (UTC)I agree. My parents have been together for decades and neither of them has any problem with being themselves, warts and all, when they're in each others' company. Mum grumbles about Dad's foibles and he grumbles about hers, and they bicker whenever they're obliged to team up for whatever reason, e.g packing for a trip or assembling a new BBQ pit in the garden, but as someone who's watched them doing it I know full well they'd die for each other.
Exactly. That first exciting flush of falling in love might be exhilarating, but what about what happens after that? Are you still going to think of your beau as Prince/Princess Charming when you've held their head over the toilet while they puke? Or smelled their farts? Or seen their dirty underwear? Or seen them drooling on the pillow at night, or first thing in the morning with their hair all in a bush and their eyes all gummed up?
Shit, can you even imagine what would have happened if Bawla Swan had had to deal with Edward's skidmarked underoos and Renesmee's 3am screaming fits and dirty nappies? The selfish bitch would have bailed out faster than a lifeguard on the decks of the RMS Lusitania.
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Date: 2022-09-15 01:01 am (UTC)I think probably the best way I can express what romantic love ideally is, as far as I understand, is to say that it's a Secret Bonus Level to friendship that's unlocked by mutual romantic attraction. A healthy romantic relationship has all the same ingredients as a friendship (trust, understanding, enjoying each other's presence, healthy boundaries, etc) with the addition of romantic chemistry. And this does, in fact, tie into why I can't believe a lot of romances: I don't buy that the characters would be friends without the romantic attraction, which means what they have isn't love, it's lust.
Another thing that's worth noting is that love is not the same thing as long-term compatibility. Two people can be in a beautiful, healthy relationship where they understand each other and have healthy boundaries, and yet be completely wrong for each other. Maybe it's some kind of sexual mismatch, e.g. one has a kink that completely turns the other off; or maybe it's a life-goals kind of thing, e.g. one person wants to have children and the other would literally rather die. These are the kind of couples who would be much, much better as just friends.
Love is also not always a force for good; I'm sure that you can think of many, many villains whose motivations boil down to "love for X," whether or not that love is romantic.