Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive137
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by drg55
edit| Appeal declined. Sandstein 07:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
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Statement by drg55edit1. Rush to judgement, I was topic banned from Scientology and religion before I had a chance to respond. 2. I am being accused under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Single purpose accounts with agendas I have exposed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bare-faced_Messiah#Complaints_by_User:Drg55 that user MartinPoulter has an agenda against Scientology, http://infobomb.org/ Not only is he giving talks "around the country" (usually in pubs) http://biasandbelief.wordpress.com/martins-talks-and-lectures/ but he has a 20 year history of attacks on Scientology in alt.religion.Scientology http://www.spaink.net/cos/mpoulter/scum.html ("Three religions take your pick" by Martin is incoherent undergraduate abuse) Martin mentions "bias research" on his user page, but does not mention his history of antagonism to Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MartinPoulter#Scientology.2FDianetics He claims credit for writing the Bare-Faced Messiah page along with Prioryman who complained about me leading to my block. 3. Scientology is one of the most popular items on the internet in Wikipedia we out rate Christianity yet what is characteristic is a new form of fascism which is intolerant of other points of view, I described it as (unreconstructed neo fascist) hence the rush to block me contrary to neutral point of view. 4. The edit which resulted in a warning for me was my deletion of a line from a newspaper article which was factually incorrect by comparison with the book. Prioryman calls this original research, I call it an unreliable source. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560476870&oldid=560410248 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=559685829&oldid=550158142 Additionally in the summary of the book I added in that disaffected Scientologists were a source, Prioryman said that was original research, so I deleted the lines about FoI docs and stolen diaries being used in the book, as they were not sourced either. I think a little common sense would apply as per WP:IAR. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560477183&oldid=560476870 5. Fut.Perf says: "I don't think I need to read much further than the "unreconstructed neo fascist" bit or the "our critics are generally insane" bit here [1]. Topic-banned. Fut.Perf." Actually our critics are generally insane and go completely overboard applies mainly to the sources used in the book and some of the other attackers over the years and is one reason why we are still here. It is a bit of a freudian slip where Fut.per identifies editors as critics. 6. The article has a section "Reaction from Hubbard's followers", surely here one would find some comments. I put some in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=562506859&oldid=562495611 Prioryman called them bad sources. There is a difference I have had trouble getting across to him that while yes a blog may not be a very good source, just like newspaper articles which are rushed and rewritten from previous articles as source, but if a person makes a personal statement in a blog, and the object in this case is the "Reaction from Hubbard's followers" then it is factual and valid. Similarly with the Scientology website and and Independent Scientologist website on Bare-Faced Messiah (wise old goat - Michel Snoeck), which is referenced here http://scientologistsfreezone.com/links.shtml. As it happens while I used to be an official for the Church and I have discussions with them from time to time I have been told they don't like me referencing Freezone Scientology, and they would prefer if I wasn't editing Wikipedia Scientology references for that matter. I don't happen to agree with the Free zone, but then I don't always agree with current management either, however I support the Church for pragmatic reasons, more right than wrong. I put these quotes in because Prioryman wanted me to get a source to say that BFM was based on disaffected Scientologists so I found one. He deleted it and I admit I put it back in with further comments. I might get a better source later on if I am permitted to continue editing. 7. I therefore request that the block be lifted, or if I am to be blocked Martin Poulter is also blocked. I still don't know Prioryman's orientation because he didn't answer my questions, but it can be expected that at least half of editors in Scientology issues are from opposed sources. The answer I think is a bit of tolerance all round. 8 The internet war with Scientology began originally by anti religious kidnappers and skeptics, the article "cult" (the most visited in Wikipedia) states that ideas of "brainwashing" in new religious groups are discreditted "In the late 1980s, psychologists and sociologists started to abandon theories like brainwashing and mind-control. While scholars may believe that various less dramatic coercive psychological mechanisms could influence group members, they came to see conversion to new religious movements principally as an act of a rational choice" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Anti-cult_movements_and_their_impact Legal victories such as the destruction of Cult Awareness Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Awareness_Network played a part. Scientology now has sufficient religious recognition that views otherwise should be viewed as prejudice. However pockets remain and Martin Poulter thinks we are a cult and it certainly drives the skeptics to drink. I don't really mind contrary views in wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements. I appeal to administrators to allow me to continue. (additional comments) Let me clarify that I bear no ill will to Martin Poulter or Prioryman.Drg55 (talk) 08:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Yes, Yogesh, for instance in my edit to the Scientology as a business lede I put in very good sources that brought that tussle to a resolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology_as_a_business&diff=prev&oldid=552247114 I mostly want to correct false reports, as I have already argued the Bare-Faced Messiah article has an imputation that Scientology became a religion for business purposes which is from a newspaper article but not borne out by the actual quote in the book http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=559685829&oldid=550158142 This is important, this page was created by Martin Poulter who has a long history against Scientology outside Wikipedia. Similarly I believe now Prioryman has such a history but this was deleted by Future Perfect at Sunrise as it would identify him. If they can be there so should I. Alternatively we all can be topic banned and the article deleted as it is an out of print book which was put online by a person. If you check into alt.religion.scientology you find the worst of internet prejudice everything that Wikipedia is seeking to avoid. My description of it was considered and not an insult, a little tongue in cheek, perhaps I should have used quotation marks. Martin Poulter in his "three religions" article wrote: "Here is a comparison of three zany joke religions: the Church of the SubGenius, Kibology and Scientology. Make YOUR MIND up about which is the most nutty". I'm happy to keep this type of language out of Wikipedia.Drg55 (talk) 21:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Fut.PerfeditApparently Drg55 thinks that calling other people "unreconstructed neo-fascists" and "insane" is okay if it's not directed at fellow editors but at people outside Wikipedia. Well, it is not. Moreover, the "neo-fascist" bit clearly was directed also at fellow editors. Drg55 apparently cannot see anything wrong with it, and just wants to be allowed to continue editing as before. Recommend speedy closure and rejection of this appeal, and possibly a block for repeating the insults even in this appeal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by MartinPoultereditI do not see a logical argument that starts with Drg55's statements above (including a lot that is nothing to do with Wikipedia) and concludes that this appeal should be upheld. What I do see, on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ego_(spirituality) ("atheists just don't get it", 'Therefore there are no "reliable sources" a source is ok in so far that a point of view exists. [...] Probably accepted points of view are the ones not to be trusted.') Talk:Scientology as a business ("Scientology Assists help medicine to work. We believe that our practices qualify as spiritual healing.") and Talk:Bare-faced_Messiah ("you are in with the Skeptics, which is a definite bias." "The fact that the media backed the book looks like black propaganda"), are general attacks on "atheists" and "skeptics", innuendo about specific other editors, promotion of the user's beliefs that are irrelevant to the articles, and attacks on reliable sources after the relevant policies have been explained courteously by other editors. That's even if Drg55 gets the benefit of the doubt over earlier contributions. While I have not campaigned for this user to be sanctioned, I can understand anyone who gets a WP:NOTHERE impression. I don't feel attacked, but I do feel that this user has yet to demonstrate they are a benefit to Wikipedia. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)editDiscussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by drg55edit
I request user:Drg55 to understand what is required of him, "unconditional acceptance and adherence to Wikipedia policies, not tit for tat, whatever the provocation. Having said that would we be able to read, his "I don't really mind contrary views in Wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements" as his requesting that he wishes to add balancing content after making sure it passes wp:RS, wp:V, wp:UNDUE and other policies? A clarification from user:Drg55 would be helpful. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by drg55edit
So far, User:Drg55 is not giving us much reason to lift his topic ban. He says: "I don't really mind contrary views in wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements. I appeal to administrators to allow me to continue." So, he would like equal time for Drg55 to insert his personal opinion to balance out whatever he disagrees with in our Scientology coverage? That's not how we achieve neutrality; see WP:RS. We rely on editors being clear-headed enough to write neutrally about what the sources have printed. Someone who so proudly wears his non-neutrality is unlikely to work effectively in these areas. EdJohnston (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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DragonTiger23
edit| User:DragonTiger23 is topic banned for three months from Greece or Greeks, ancient or modern, on all pages of Wikipedia. EdJohnston (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Request concerning DragonTiger23edit
1,2,3 are all from the same talkpage:
Discussion concerning DragonTiger23editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DragonTiger23editI am for years a neutral contributor to Wikipedia and I am not very active on "massacres" topics. The entire disagreement with several users began when I created Gemlik-Yalova Peninsula massacres (A Greek army massacre of Turkish villages in 1921). For years there has been almost no information about Turkish civilian casualties in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) on Wikipedia, but there were huge casualties, it deserves an article. (While Greek and Armenian have their own articles, which I have absolutely no problem with and I never denied them). So I thought wikipedia was a neutral encyclopedia which is not selective in presenting the information. I thought it was not a crime when I created an article where Greeks massacre Turks. I had done a lot of research on the events in 1921 and created the article by using neutral western sources. However after the creation of the article I could never develop it properly because I got into several heated discussions for which I was warned and blocked two times. Afterwards I said I would not edit that page anymore and I kept my promise. Besides I accused some people of WP:JDLI not immediately, but after I gave huge chunks of text with explanation and people still ignored or denied them. So these are all old cherry picked sentences from heated discussions, where I was constantly accused of being POV, nationalist and so on. If anybody cares they can read the talkpage [2] where I answered their accusations with arguments and properly sources. I am still constantly being accused of being non-neutral.[3] [4], [5] So User:Proudbolsahye is cherrypicking sentences from those several months old dicussion and now uses them for which I was already warned and blocked twice to block me again. I also do not understand why I should be blocked from all Greek related topics, I am not even active on those. I never denied Turks massacring Greeks or others. I created List of massacres in the Byzantine Empire because User:Proudbolsahye proposed to remove Byzantine massacres from the List of massacres in Turkey and it was removed. Geographical name changes in Greece,Template:Greek nationalism, I do not see what is wrong with creating these, they are facts based on sources. I also edited mostly on the demographic history of Greek countries such as Cyprus [[6]] and the table in this section of Nicosia [[7]]. I have also added massacres committed by Turks against Greeks and others towards Byzantines.[8] [9] I am also working on a article of Turkish massacres against Armenians User:DragonTiger23/ List of anti Armenian massacres during 1894–1896 I do not understand User:Proudbolsahye's (I have had very little discussion with him in the past) sudden attempt to let me block for monthly old comments (towards others) for which I was already warned and blocked. I am also not doing WP:Battle, I am just creating articles for neglected information. Is it forbidding to create articles related to topics such as massacres and human rights only because the subject is Greece or other certain countries? Note: User:Proudbolsahye accuses me of "all his edits in relation to Greeks or Byzantines have been an attempt to present them as people who conduct massacres, murders" (which is obviously not true) is himself the creator of numerous Turkish related articles (which I have absolutely no problem with) such as: Template:Turkish nationalism, Geographical name changes in Turkey, Citizen speak Turkish!, Confiscated Armenian properties in Turkey, Animal name changes in Turkey, 1934 Turkish Resettlement Law, Sevag Balıkçı. DragonTiger23 (talk) 11:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC) Comment by DragonTiger23editFirst of all I would like to thank you Future Perfect at Sunrise for clarifying and understanding my situation and point in the article of Hagia Sophia and the discussion with the specified user. For I suck at defending myself, especially when multiple users are ganging up against me, for this is how I feel the situation and it is becoming more and more unpleasant for me to edit on Wikipedia. Secondly, I feel like my comments are ignored (perhaps my English isn't understandable), so I will try to keep it brief this time (I don't want to bring up months old discussions, but I have to since above users already did). If someone wants more information or a clarification of the points I will give below, I can elaborate on them.
While at the same time acting like a "doomsayer" (trying to recruit other users; note that he thinks E4024 was "trying to recruit me"): 10 June 2013 [20], 10 June 2013 [21], 9 June 2013 [22]
Preliminary notes by Fut.Perf.editFor the moment, I'll just make one observation about the edits on Hagia Sophia： while DragonTiger's sarcastic tone in his edit summary [25] is certainly not desirable, some amount of frustration on his part is understandable in this instance, as his prior edit was indeed quite correct and constructive (as has now been conclusively determined on the talkpage), and the erroneous statement he was trying to fix had been sitting in the article as an unsourced piece of rather blatantly false OR for a long time. He had been blanket-reverted quickly and without discussion [26], by an editor who evidently overlooked the fact that the previous version was unsourced and obviously implausible (and who then made another – good-faith – error when trying to find sourcing for it afterwards). The fact that this disagreement came up again in a heated exchange between the same two editors on an entirely unrelated talkpage a few days later (Talk:Istanbul riots#Minimize or maximize) shows that there is evidently a lot of bad blood between these editors now, and I can't say the fault is entirely on one side, as here too DragonTiger was evidently correct about the need to fix an incorrectly cited source. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by ChauahuasachcaeditI had a strong feeling this was going happen. I remember this user a couple months back when he argued in a very aggressive manner over the Sultan Mehmed article. I knew he was going to be future problem with his disruptive edits. Turns out his pattern of aggressive language, POV editing and personal attacks have continued at a large scale. His most recent disruptive edit at the Talkpage of Janina Vilayet is very concerning. Even at the ANI board he was making sarcastic remarks towards the Admins and is generally very difficult to work with. I agree with a topic ban under ARBMAC.--Chauahuasachca (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by AlexikouaeditApart from the above mentioned issues, which mainly describe a problematic behaviour by DT23, it's useful to add the following:
Statement by Atheneanedit
Result concerning DragonTiger23editThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. A sanction is not possible because it appears that DragonTiger23 has not yet received a warning of the type required per WP:AC/DS#Warnings (that is, with a link to the arbitration case). That being so, the most we can do is to issue that warning. Even a brief glance at the lengthy report indicates that it is needed, see for instance edit summaries such as [45] or obviously non-neutral unreferenced contributions such as [46] ("Since 1830 the majority of non-Greek toponyms in Greece have been changed to Greek ones thereby erasing the history of the people and location for the sake of nationalism.") Accordingly, I am warning DragonTiger23 that if they continue with conduct of the sort reported here, they will likely be banned from making any edits related to Greece, Turkey or other Balkans countries. Sandstein 18:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The editor seems redeemable, but the bad behavior listed here is too much to overlook. I'd suggest a six-month topic ban under WP:ARBMAC for anything related to Greece or Greeks. He already has four blocks for edit warring. Somebody who has been here since 2010 ought by now to be familiar with our customs. EdJohnston (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
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MarshalN20
edit| No action, but MarshalN20 is warned that future actions that skirt the boundaries of their topic ban may result in sanctions. Sandstein 21:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning MarshalN20edit
These two barnstars came after a discussion on Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas, where the editors opposed User:Lecen's viewpoint. The article is clearly in the realm of Latin American history, and was the principal point of contention in the Argentine history arbitration case (where Lecen was Marshal's principal opponent).
User:MarshalN20 is attempting to creatively skirt the topic ban imposed in the Argentine history case and trying to get under Lecen's skin (again). As the ban is supposed to be "broadly construed", I think he's gone over the line—the barnstars are clearly related to the Rosas discussion. Additional context just prior to these incidents can be seen at User_talk:NuclearWarfare/Archive_38#MarshalN20, where Marshal intriguingly says that he "will focus on cleaning my honor as an editor".
Discussion concerning MarshalN20editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarshalN20editWikiLove messages are not part of any subject. Moreover, my messages at no point mention any specific topic or discussion, in accordance to WP:TBAN. Both editors have a long history of editing in Wikipedia, and I've had the pleasure to view their actions in various occasions.
Statement by BarrelProofeditIt seems silly to file a formal complaint about a user giving a couple of people barnstars on their userpages. If that's the best the petitioner can do to find something to complain about, it's rather sad. What would be the state of Wikipedia if you weren't even allowed to tell someone you like their editing? Moreover, I'm sad to see the prior decision of a topic ban against MarshalN20. Marshal's prior conduct in that incident doesn't look all that bad to me. In the heat of the moment, we all sometimes slip a little. Marshal is a valuable editor who has subject-matter expertise that can benefit Wikipedia. A warning to follow WP:FOC and try to keep cool and maintain more formal courtesy might have sufficed. I've had the privilege of encountering Marshal in some other editing (leading to a "today's featured article" upcoming on July 15, 2013, in fact), and would like to see that contribution continue. I've tried to study that prior dispute a little, and basically haven't been able to figure it out so far, but my rough impression is that the existing topic ban was excessive in this case. —BarrelProof (talk) 03:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (Lecen)editOn July 9 Gaba p mentioned the possibility of making a RfC on Juan Manuel de Rosas.[51] On the same day (and a couple of hour later), MarshalN20 told Galba p how easy it is to make a RfC and how it "helps avoid any uncomfortable situations".[52] There was no present conversation between them at that point. The last time they had talked to each other had been more than a week before. This message to Galba p along with the two wikilove messages (sent on July 8) seem to suggest, at minimum, that MarshalN20 has been motivating other users who are taking part on discussions on Juan Manuel de Rosas' talk page. MarshalN20 was banned from all articles related to the history of Latin America, especially Juan Manuel de Rosas' article. --Lecen (talk) 18:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by (username)editResult concerning MarshalN20editThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. I don't think this is actionable. While Ed is quite possibly correct about MarshalN20's motivation for these barnstars, we shouldn't sanction topic-banned editors for making edits whose relationship to the prohibited topic area is only a matter of inference or supposition, or else the scope of a topic ban becomes unenforceably blurry. In my view, any relationship to the prohibited topic area must be apparent from the edit itself, or the page it is on. But, MarshalN20, a word of advice. If ArbCom bans you from a topic area, take it seriously and drop the subject. Skirting around the ban's edges will not help you get it lifted any time soon. Sandstein 04:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
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SonofSetanta and TROUBLES
edit| Not actionable in this form. Please resubmit, if at all, in the form that includes all required information and avoids threaded discussion. Sandstein 18:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC) |
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SonofSetanta (talk · contribs) has violated 1R on Ulster Defence Regiment. They Created their own knockoff version of a copyrighted logo (which is factually incorrect) and proceeded to insert it across multiple articles. The user has repeatedly threatened to report me to AE for enforcing WP:NFCC on pages that they are involved with and I am getting sick of it. The users understanding of WP:NFCC is non-existent and they edit war to violate it. Werieth (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
No violation has taken place by me. The above user has turned a problem over copyright military badges into a WP:BATTLE. He is trying to use his position to violate Troubles sanctions (and has done) despite a warning from Calil. I have followed Calil's advice and waited several hours after the 24 hour deadline for 1 RR before posting the new image which does not breach any guidelines. Furthermore I have sought advice at MILHIST and elsewhere. I believe the issue is that Werieth doesn't understand the significance of using military insignia in military info boxes. Calil has said as much. I am also very firmly of the opinion that Weieth has opened this complaint frivolously because I threatened to open one about him if he carried on editwarring in breach of 1RR at Ulster Defence Regiment and related articles. (see his talk page Werieth (talk). SonofSetanta (talk) 17:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC) |
Delicious carbuncle
edit| handed off to Arbcom. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Delicious carbuncleedit
Wikipediocracy is a forum for WP editors and others to attack WP editors and out them, seemingly without sanction on WP. In the latest example, an editor Delicious carbuncle has posted a substantial attack on another WP editor. I'm not linking to this (see below for why), but it's obvious from the site's main page and I'm sure that all Arbs will be aware of it by now. After ArbCom actions a year ago, Delicious carbuncle is under specific sanctions to not use Wikipediocracy to attack WP editors by outing:
I believe this recent action to be a breach of that. Some background, just to save obvious questions later: My awareness of Wikipediocracy stems from a recently contested AfD (a Wikipediocracy issue in itself), as a result of which I suffered attacks and outing at Wikipediocracy myself [53], from WP editors, an admin and non-editors. Complaints about that though were rejected through WP (and I'm sure they're outside scope here). WP:ANI#Alexander_Montagu.2C_13th_Duke_of_Manchester_and_canvassing_at_Wikipediocracy Having been told that I can't raise personal complaints as that's self-interested and "just whining", I was repulsed last night to see that Wikipediocracy is now front-paging another of its "exposes" - two editors with whom I have no connection (I've seen both in passing, never memorably interacted with either). Accordingly I raised that at WP:AN#Wikipediocracy_and_outing, only to be threatened with blocking for having done so, and of course it being closed and hatted promptly. However in this case, I have since been informed that there's an outstanding and specific sanction against Delicious carbuncle over doing this. Accordingly I raise it here. Further clarifications:
Discussion concerning Delicious carbuncleeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Delicious carbuncleeditStatement by Dan Murphyedit
Statement by CollecteditWikipediocracy is frequently sophomoric (heck - so are some things on Wikipedia, for that matter.) The question is not "attack" as that is such a broad claim that even saying "Editor Gnarph uses long words" falls into that category. So we must decide first if the incident alluded to here actually is "outing" else it clearly is outside the purview of ArbCom, and only then if the matter is of such import that it trquires action here. I did not think when I just read the post that it meets those criteria. Collect (talk) 11:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Hullaballoo WolfowitzeditThis matter does not fall under the ArbCom ruling cited. In that case, Delicious Carbuncle was admonished for posting "another editor's non-disclosed private information", which, it turned out, he had retrieved from an online database. In this matter, the editor in question disclosed their own name on Wikipedia, in connection with image uploads, and posted under that name (or online handles openly associated with that name) on external sites (self-identifying, inter alia, as an official in a well-known hate group with a track record of criminal activity.) Discussing that is not a violation of either the principle declared by ArbCom or the principal terms of WP:OUTING. Perhaps DC has approached the limits of what is allowed in tracing openly acknowledged associations of other editors, but given the nature of those associations I think he reasonably believed his actions were allowed by Wikipedia policies. If we do not wish to tolerate editors pointing out other editors' openly acknowledged associations with unsavory or criminal groups or activities, we should have a much clearer policy (and be ready to deal with substantial, well-justified, criticism from outside observers and commenters.) Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by TarceditI've really never cared for a editor advocating on behalf of another; we're not a court, and do not need stand-ins unless there is some extraordinarily unusual circumstance that necessitates it. Mr. Dingley has no standing to complain about a matter not concerning him, so as others have noted, if this Kintetsubuffalo person believes there is some policy-violating, on-Wikipedia transgression that DC has committed, then he is perfectly capable of filing the complaint in the venue of choice. I'd note though that per Wikipedia:Harassment#Off-wiki harassment off-wiki activities are not directly sanctionable though, and are usually only considered as potential aggravating factor within a larger case. DC vs. Fae was actionable because of the past on-wiki strife between the two, so that isn't really applicable here as to my knowledge there has been no on-wiki dispute between DC and Kintetsubuffalo. DC is a journalist, writing exposés about newsworthy/problematic Wikipedia people and events, no different from Amanda Filipacchi or Phil Taylor other than the fact that he is also a long-time Wikipedia editor. Membership here should not give one extra ammo with which to try to silence one's critics. Tarc (talk) 14:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by IRWolfie-editAn editor has brought up credible evidence that another editor is a member of the Ku Klux Klan. This AE thread and the original AN thread, to my surprise are not about dealing with this extraordinary revelation and trying to set up some process to arrive at the truth, rather people seem most concerned about suppressing the information, despite no specific disagreement with the evidence presented. Wikipedia policies aren't laws which we follow blindly. It should be obvious to everyone that the "loophole" is IAR. If WP:OUTING conflicts with removing a KKK member via IAR, IAR wins. I worry about anyone that would disagree. I can not understand why there exists a discussion in which editors are trying to have DC blocked for this, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Cla68editWhat's up with Wikipedia? Someone provides a report on how a Wikipedia editor may be an active member in a racist hate group and other activities that should be concerning to WP's administration and a WP editor with a grudge decides to try to get the person sanctioned. You really cannot make this stuff up. And yes, this does apply to why this is or is not sanctionable here at AE. Cla68 (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by LiquidWateredit(To above statements) A user's membership in organisations such as KKK or any other political group, should not determine whether or not (s)he shall be allowed to use and edit Wikipedia. We are the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. LiquidWater 07:58, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Result concerning Delicious carbuncleeditThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Without wanting to express an opinion on the merits, I think this request is not actionable at the AE level for procedural reasons. Here's why: The first decision invoked, "Delicious carbuncle posted identifying information on Fæ", is a finding of fact, not a remedy. Only remedies are enforceable. The second decision invoked, "Delicious carbuncle severely admonished and warned", is a warning, not a restriction. But the decision's enforcement section only says "Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction ...", in other words, it does not provide for the enforcement of warnings. This means that administrators are not authorized to take enforcement action in this case.As I said at AN, this matter should be referred for private deliberation to ArbCom (if it hasn't already) by any person who believes themselves to be aggrieved by the offwiki actions at issue. Onwiki discussions are unhelpful in privacy-related matters. A warning to all participants to this thread: Any statements not directly related to the question of how and whether this is actionable as an AE matter may be removed, and this entire thread may be removed if it derails into a venue for pointless drama and privacy breaches. Sandstein 12:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by AgadaUrbanit
edit| The ban from contributing to WP:AE is lifted by agreement of the sanctioning administrator. Sandstein 08:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Timotheus_Canens&diff=prev&oldid=564830321 Statement by AgadaUrbaniteditIt has been a year since my AE ban. I did my best to contribute to Wikipedia and respect ban restriction. Considering the length of the ban and my contributions I am requesting a lifting of my ban. Thank you.
Statement by T. CanenseditI'm fine with lifting this restriction. T. Canens (talk) 03:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)editStatement by (involved editor 2)editDiscussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AgadaUrbaniteditYou are appealing a ban from participating in this noticeboard. Can you (a) explain why you incurred that ban in the first place, and (b) name a situation after your ban where it would have been to the benefit of Wikipedia if you had been allowed to edit this noticeboard? Sandstein 19:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by AgadaUrbanitedit
Considering that the sanctioning admin has said above that he agrees to lift the restriction, I'm recording it as lifted and am closing the thread. Sandstein 08:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC) |
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Jiujitsuguy
edit| Closed as declined--Cailil talk 19:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
Statement by JiujitsuguyeditIt has been a year since my topic ban. I have scrupulously adhered to the ban’s provisions steering clear of anything remotely related to the topic area. I’ve edited constructively outside of the topic area. In light of the Ban’s length, the fact that I’ve respected it’s provisions and the fact that I’ve edited constructively outside of the topic area[56], I am requesting a lifting of the ban. Thank you. Statement by T. CanenseditI'm personally not inclined to lift this ban, particular in light of the paucity of edits after the ban; in short, there is no way for me to assess whether the problematic conduct would recur if the ban were lifted. T. Canens (talk) 03:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by The Devil's AdvocateeditThis editor has made less than 100 edits since the topic ban. I do not believe this should be seen as a good indicator. Should Jiujitsuguy show unequivocal understanding of exactly why he was given such a lengthy topic ban then maybe it should be considered. Normally, I don't think an admission of guilt is important, but the problem here is that his indefinite topic ban was for repeated acts of blatant deceit in his content work and in his conduct on this noticeboard. Admins should be very circumspect about giving this appeal favorable consideration.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by SDeditI think this request should be declined. Considering Jiujitsuguys long term problematic history and repeated problematic behavior, Jiujitsuguy is a user who has never been beneficial to the A-I topic area, quite the opposite. And it would be beneficial for A-I Wikipedia articles in regards to npov and factual accuracy that user Jiujitsuguy is not permitted to edit them. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Pluto2012editReading the case that lead to his ban I understand that JJG was topic-banned because he falsified sources and accused another to do so : [57]. I don't think an editor with such a behaviour is welcomeon the project. Pluto2012 (talk) 07:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)editDiscussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by JiujitsuguyeditResult of the appeal by Jiujitsuguyedit
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BlackHades
edit| Non-actionable content dispute. Maunus and BlackHades are reminded not to make allegations of misconduct against others without evidence, and to respect WP:BLP in talk page discussions, respectively. Sandstein 20:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BlackHadesedit
Several other editors have commented on the talkpage in support of my efforts to rewrite the article which now relies on many primary sources and with an idiosyncratic weighting that favors the minority view in accordance with mainstream secondary sources. When presented with clear and obvious mainstream sources such as general texbook introductions to the fields of psychology or human biological variation, or review articles from mainstream journals or handbooks, he works to undercut their authority through Original Research, by throwing their credentials into doubt, or by suggesting that they are fringe scientists in their fields o similarly - this can only be interpreted as deliberate attempts to misrepresent the mainstream in contravention of wikipedia policy and arbcom injunctions. User:BlackHades is for all intents an purposes an advocacy SPA all though he divides his wikipedia time between advocating at R&I and at GMO related articles. His editing practices are familiar to seasoned R&I editors because they rely on subtly misrepresenting sources and legthy repetitive argumentation on talkpages to hamper efforts to bring the article in line with policies and maintain a hereditarian bias. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Discussion concerning BlackHadeseditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BlackHadeseditThere's so much Maunus is misrepresenting here. Regarding the first diff, I was politely trying to explain to Maunus that there are far more admixture studies than what his source acknowledges and was trying to open his mind to other reliable sources and to take into account all studies in the field rather just ones that would just fit a specific viewpoint. For some reason Maunus took great offensive to this, and called me "pathetic" and said I was "wasting time" in his following post.[63] I followed this up by providing TWO very high quality secondary sources that considers a much wider range of studies that came to very difference conclusions in stark contrast to the source he provided. Which was Hunt's "Human Intelligence" and Cambridge University Press' "Handbook of Intelligence".[64] Maunus has made 41 edits in Race and Intelligence in the past week. Many of which are highly controversial and yet it's as though he feels there should be absolutely no objections to any changes he makes and that everyone should just accept what he does. My objections aren't alone either. User:The Devil's Advocate and User:Atethnekos have both raised concerns to the changes Maunus was making.[65][66] Regarding the second diff by Maunus, I've made it abundantly clear to Maunus that both the 80% genetic hypothesis of Jensen/Rushton, as well as the 100% environmental hypothesis by Nisbett, are extreme positions in the scientific field. The fact is that they're both the extreme ends and reliable secondary sources makes this repeatedly clear. I've provided Maunus with several reliable secondary sources that have considered Nisbett's positions to be extreme.[67][68] Although I consider both Jensen/Rushton and Nisbett to be extremes of their respective positions, I do hold that both should have at least some weight in the article. I was just trying to get Maunus to open his mind just a little to more mainstream reliable secondary sources and not just ones that fit Nisbett's position. This is why I strongly suggested he consider Hunt's "Human Intelligence" and Cambridge University Press' "Handbook of Intelligence", both of which is critical of Nisbett's arguments (as well as Jensen/Rushton) which for some reason he seems to take great offense to. Regarding the third diff, Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study is an extremely highly regarded study and the most comprehensive of its kind and is heavily cited by both hereditarians and environmentalists in the field. It is explained in great detail by both Hunt's "Human Intelligence" and Cambridge University Press' "Handbook of Intelligence" as well as nearly every comprehensive overview of adoption and admixture studies. Which is what made Maunus's source all the more unusual and an anomaly. I'm not sure why Maunus is bringing up age of studies as the admixture studies in his source are much older. (Flynn 1980, Loehlin et al. 1975). The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study originally published in 1976, had a follow up study published in 1996. As to edit warring in Race and genetics. Maunus completely misrepresents the situation. The 3RR warning was placed by Aprock, who was actually the one edit warring, and who repeatedly tried to insert a POV line into what is suppose to be a neutral RfC.[69][70][71][72][73] For which EdJohnston had to warn Aprock to stop or risk getting blocked.[74] Regarding diff #5, this is further evidence that Maunus will only allow one specific position as far as sources. The topic of race is certainly very contentious, controversial, and disputed in the scientific field. The articles of wikipedia should be able to accurately represent this controversy, as it exists in the scientific field, and fairly show all significant views per WP:NPOV. However, Maunus and some other editors, will only allow one specific position into these articles and repeatedly reject any source that does not support this one position, which is that races doesn't exist and all differences are environmental. This one position is certainly significant, relevant, and deserve weight in the article. The problem is the constant attempt by some editors, like Maunus, to either try to make this the ONLY view in science or the overwhelming near consensus view in science. When in actuality, the issue is extremely controversial and contentious in the scientific field. These editors have been, and still remain, to be a significant problem in these articles. Their conduct extremely difficult to deal with as has been stated by User:The Devil's Advocate. Not only have there been a complete unwillingness to work with anybody that differs from this one position, they threaten anyone that differs from this one position with ArbCom. In the past, there have been problems with some editors trying to over-weigh the hereditarian position. This I completely understand and realize was a huge problem. However many editors interpret this to mean that sources that do not support the environmental position doesn't belong in the article and anyone that tries to cite otherwise should face ArbCom. The current problem in these articles appear to be the other extreme from the problem that was here previously. Which is that editors now support the extreme environmental positions of Nisbett and try to get all the race articles to match this position, and go on mass deleting sprees of quality reliable sources that would differ from this one position. Of which I recently had to start a RfC in order to stop at least some of this mass deletion. The results of the RfC came in overwhelmingly in favor of inclusion and against deletion.[75] I completely reject the notion by Maunus that I am a SPA. I've been involved in an extremely wide range of science related wikipedia articles completely unrelated to race. Including Genetically modified food, Genetically modified food controversies, Wow! signal, Ultimate fate of the universe, Human genetic engineering, Multiverse, Intelligence quotient, IQ classification, Séralini affair, etc. In fact, of all my article edits, all race related article edits combined only make up 34% of my article edits. I'm not sure what Maunus feels is a SPA but I'm confident this is not it. BlackHades (talk) 03:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by The Devil's AdvocateeditI have been only tangentially involved in the most recent dispute, because I objected to Maunus slanting the lede by removing nearly all mention of hereditarian views. My observation has been that there is a lot of rhetoric about sourcing thrown about by some editors in the midst of disputes in this topic area to try and set the stage for removing editors who disagree with them through a process such as AE. "Misrepresenting sources", "misuse of sources", and "cherry-picking", are common buzz words that I find rarely being explained by those throwing them about. Here Maunus is misrepresenting the nature of the "edit-warring" on the Race and Genetics talk page. After a DRN where Aprock's primary involvement was to say there was no point in discussing because it was a "clear case of cherry-picking" the decision was made to have an RFC on wording in the article. Aprock repeatedly tried to add wording to the RfC that was blatantly geared towards cementing his position. Maunus subsequently joined in on the edit-warring to restore that slanted wording to the RfC. We managed to reach a satisfactory solution that had Aprock's statement clearly attributed and put in a prominent space where it was less objectionable, but it just shows the kind of conduct BH has to deal with in the R&I topic area. My opinion is that removing BH from the topic area will not be beneficial for the objectivity of the article's content. Maunus, Aprock, and other editors need to be more open to discussion and collaboration.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by AprockeditWhile not viewable to all, I think Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/KillerChihuahua is another good illustration of BlackHades' disruption. aprock (talk) 03:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Comment by MathscieditMy understanding of Maunus' complaint is that BlackHades has been systematically misrepresenting or ignoring sources to push a minority point of view as mainstream. Maunus is trained as an academic anthropologist and is the first regular editor since August 2010 that has attempted to improve the problematic article Race and intelligence. While doing so, he has apparently encountered tendentious editing from BlackHades of the same kind that led to his request for a Nature & Nurture topic ban for Acadēmica Orientālis a year ago. His frustration presumably led to this report. It is unclear how this situation can be resolved. A factor that has continued to complicate the editing environment in WP:ARBR&I has been the appearance of editors that appear to be socks of banned users. The most recent such account was Akuri, who interacted with BlackHades, lent support to his edits and has been supported by him. Akuri was blocked by arbitrators in May and his talk page access revoked in June. Since then there has been no on-wiki disruption traceable to banned users. Mathsci (talk) 05:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC) Update. Maunus has started an RfC on sourcing for the article race and intelligence, so some time should be allowed to see how matters develop. Mathsci (talk) 08:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Professor marginalia accurately described the current problems in this diff. BlackHades still appears to be pushing a minority point of view as mainstream, using a wide variety of arguments. Having something published in book-form or in a peer-reviewed journal is no guarantee that it is not a minority point of view. BlackHades continues to suggest otherwise. In this fairly typical diff [82] BlackHades in addition makes disparaging remarks about Richard E. Nisbett, a social psychologist. In 1991 Nisbett was a recipient of the prestigious APA Award for Distinguished Scientific Contributions to Psychology. In 2002 he was elected a Member of the National Academy of Sciences. Yet BlackHades in the diff writes of an article wholly unrelated to race and intelligence, "Are you familiar with his "Telling more than we can know: Verbal reports on mental process (1977)" paper? It's the paper that made him infamous and brought on strong condemnation from the psychology field." Nisbett is not "infamous" nor has he received "strong condemnation from the psychology field." That kind of tendentious editing has nothing at all to do with content and is a BLP violation. Mathsci (talk) 08:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Comment by JohnuniqeditScience can be used to prove all sorts of things, and now an analysis shows that R&I is at #9 in The 10 Most Controversial Wikipedia Topics Around the World (from Signpost). I do not know if AE can help, but something is needed to assist editors known to value the encyclopedia, as they compete with those with a special interest. Johnuniq (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC) Result concerning BlackHadeseditThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The arbitration process, and by extension its enforcement, only resolves conduct disputes, not content disputes. To the extent this case presents any conduct problems, they are not presented in such a way that would allow me to distinguish them from the content disagreement that appears to be underlying this dispute. Editors may legitimately disagree about which sources should be used, especially on talk pages, without engaging in forbidden advocacy. The measured response by Black Hades also does not give me the impression that they are here to push a particular point of view. To determine whether any advocacy has happened here, I would need to engage in a thorough review of the apparently complicated scientific literature on the subject, which is not feasible in the context of this process and would also require me in effect to take a position in the content dispute. The only indications of possible conduct problems are the edit-warring allegations (which however are undated and not supported by diffs of the alleged edit-warring) and the issue of the sockpuppet investigation request mentioned by Aprock that was deleted as frivolous (and rightly so, in my view), but that was in February 2013 and therefore does not appear actionable any more at this time, at least not on its own. I would therefore decline to take action here and advise both parties to engage more thoroughly in the WP:DR process, for instance by inviting third-party comments, to resolve their content disagreement. Sandstein 06:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
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DragonTiger23
edit| DragonTiger23 is blocked for one week and the topic ban on Greece/Greeks extended to indefinite for blatant and repeated violations of the topic ban. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DragonTiger23edit
Topic ban violations:
...many more in one day. Please check contributions. Disruptive editing:
The user has been topic banned and a notice of his topic ban was given by admin EdJohnston (talk · contribs) on his talk page with specific instructions stating, "you are topic banned for three months from Greece or Greeks, ancient or modern, on all pages of Wikipedia including talk." Even after he was warned violating the topic ban, he continued and in one edit, deleted the warning. He has clearly violated his ban but I might also want to add that he caused a lot of disruption in a matter of hours as mentioned above. Much of the disruptive edits are almost identical to the same ones that got him his topic ban in the first place. Therefore, I request that DragonTiger23 be blocked and his time span of his topic ban increase from 3 months to whatever the admins deem necessary.
Discussion concerning DragonTiger23editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DragonTiger23editStatement by Kansas BeareditI would ask that DragonTiger not be indefinitely topic banned on the condition that he refrains from aggressive battleground-like conduct. As User:Someone not using his real name stated, "Looking at the AE report that got DragonTiger23 sanctioned, it seems he often makes useful, valid content contributions...".[84] He is not the only editor that believes DragonTiger makes useful, valid content contributions, I believe this as well, even though he and I have clashed on a number of occasions. But, Wikipedia is not about cooperating with people who agree with us, its about working together to build an encyclopedia with people who don't agree with us. Also, I personally do not consider the link listed above as a "warning" issued to DragonTiger, more like a reminder of his topic ban. --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by (username)editResult concerning DragonTiger23editThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. A clear topic ban violation and continued aggressive battleground-like conduct. I recommend extending the topic ban's duration to indefinite and imposing a one-week enforcement block. Sandstein 07:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC) I agree on the clear violation and extension of the topic ban, and also note that this editor has been blocked recently for a week already for edit warring and other misconduct. I would agree to a week this time, with a reminder that any subsequent violations are likely to result in a significantly longer or indefinite block. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow
edit| Appeal granted by me as the sanctioning administrator. Sandstein 06:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
Discussion Log
Statement by TheShadowCroweditAs can be seen in the Technical 13 discussion, I wasn't aware that by partaking in a talk page discussion, I was violating the rules of WP:ARBAA2, and I also didn't know that I was only able to report others breaking rules if I go to ANI. I'm really sorry for what I did and would like my block to be lifted now. I promise I will remember what I learned about what WP:ARBAA2 falls under. The one month block given to me has already served for over three weeks. I feel I have been patient and would like to be allowed to edit once again. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Sandstein concerning the appeal by TheShadowCroweditThese edits are not exempt from the topic ban as described in WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans, because they were not part of necessary dispute resolution between TheShadowCrow and others. In particular, according to that policy and contrary to TheShadowCrow's opinion, reporting alleged violation of topic bans by others is not exempt from a topic ban. That applies irrespective of where the report is made, whether at ANI or elsewhere. In any case, the edit of 28 June 2013 was not even a report of a topic ban violation by someone else, but it was a unneeded comment on such a report by another editor, and moreover combined with a personal attack on the banning administrator ("Mr. Know-it-all"). TheShadowCrow's statement of appeal continues to reflect a misunderstanding of what a topic ban means, because they incorrectly assume that their edits would have been all right if they had been made at ANI. Sanctions are preventative, not punitive; they are intended to last as long (but only as long) as they are likely needed to prevent the reoccurrence of the problematic conduct at issue (in this case, topic ban violations). Because of the lack of understanding of the sanction reflected in this appeal, a case could be made that the block remains necessary as a preventative measure, and should be extended rather than lifted. However, because the appeal seems to be a good-faith effort to indicate at least an intention of compliance with the topic ban, I am granting the appeal (in my capacity as sanctioning administrator) and unblocking TheShadowCrow, in the hope that this additional explanation will help them avoid future topic ban violations. Sandstein 06:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by Bbb23editTheShadowCrow is currently blocked until July 29. Per WP:AEBLOCK, he has requested that I copy this appeal here. Because SC cannot notify the blocking administrator, I will do so for him.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by BwilkinseditAs per the discussion on ShadowCrow's talkpage, I have been willing to WP:AGF and dole out a significant amount of WP:ROPE. I will concede that he may have indeed been trying to file an appropriate notification of someone else's AE violation - however, instead of posting at AE, he notified what has come to be known as "the voice" of AE: User:Sandstein. After extensive discussion with ShadowCrow, it appear that we had a way forward that would prevent future recurrence - which is of course the goal of every block on Wikipedia. I did approach Sanstein to therefore undo his block, but he declined at that time. I feel that because of AGF, ROPE and the preventative nature of blocks, this block should be lifted at this time. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCroweditResult of the appeal by TheShadowCrowedit
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
edit| Closed as declined. Would suggest No More Mr Nice Guy makes an appeal again in 2-3 months time based on a demonstrated change in behaviour while editing in the WP:ARBPIA area--Cailil talk 17:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
Statement by No More Mr Nice GuyeditI made a good faith AE complaint. I have never been warned (or even accused) of using AE improperly. I have a completely clean record. I think this sanction is disproportionate for a first offense (even when ignoring the lack of AGF). I would like the sanction lifted. @Sandstein: The fact I made no mainspace edits since my ban doesn't allow you to "to ascertain whether the problems that caused the ban have since disappeared"? I haven't made any edits because I was somewhat upset that a good faith report I made at AE about something that has been bothering me and other Jewish editors for years, was dismissed out of hand by a single administrator over the weekend following the 4th of July. So I took a short wikibreak. Now you're trying to hold that against me as if it can be in any way relevant to this appeal? How exactly are mainspace edits relevant to a ban from AE? As for understanding why I was sanctioned, I understand perfectly. You think I was not acting in good faith. The thing is, I was acting in good faith. If you had bothered to follow the diffs (which you admitted you only glanced at) you would have seen that except for the "chosen people" thing, in every case I told Nishidani that he was using offensive language and that if he continues I would eventually seek admin intervention. I apparently made a mistake regarding the willingness of the administration here to deal with this sort of thing (anyone remember the Jews and Money fiasco? Here's a little reminder. It took 4 threads at ANI to get this eventually taken care of. Imagine if the first complaint would have resulted in someone being banned. The chilling effect would have probably left that article in the encyclopedia). Anyway, I understand why I was sanctioned. Because an administrator did not assume good faith. @bbb, I think someone can troll and bait Jews without necessarily being antisemitic. I hope I'm not exceeding the limits of my ban, but see for example this short discussion, which I included in my original complaint. Gratuitous off-topic "look what a bad Jew did" when talking to someone you think is Jewish doesn't necessarily mean you're an antisemite. It is textbook trolling though, designed to bait Jews. @Cailil & John Carter: If I'm banned from making AE complaints, "the behaviour that led to [my ban]" would stop by definition, since I won't be allowed to repeat it because I'd be banned from making AE complaints. @Ed: What does making neutral edits in the ARBPIA domain have to do with being banned from making AE complaints? I thought these things were supposed to be preventative, not punitive. My ARBPIA editing is not and has not been an issue here. Why are you trying to tie it into this ban? @Seraphimblade: In the thread above this one the editor was not required to demonstrate positive editing or anything of the sort. That issue never came up. @Ed: That's ridiculous. My complaint was only tangentially related to the ARBPIA topic and was about editor conduct. Anyway, I already have a "record of neutral edits in the ARBPIA area", almost 6000 of them over several years without even as much as a warning regarding neutrality or anything else. Nobody has shown I have some kind of pattern of misbehavior that I need to change. That's one of the reasons I made this appeal. A ban without any prior history of misbehavior is harsh and pretty uncommon. Now adding unrelated conditions to it has a strong smell of punishment rather than prevention. But whatever. Do what you want. I'm still trying to get over the fact that no less than 6 of you found the time to look into this pretty unimportant appeal, but only one of you could be bothered to look into a serious misconduct claim. Amazing. Now go ahead and throw the book at the troublemaker that makes noises you don't want to hear. Wikipedia's reputation is well earned. @Cailil: Say what? I was responding to a falsification of something I said. That's "precisely what got [me] banned"? Are you kidding me? Statement by SandsteineditI disagree with the appellant that the ban from AE (with respect to the Arab-Israeli conflict topic only) for making a frivolous AE request is disproportionate. Discretionary sanctions in particular can be wide-ranging and severe, and requesting them for specious or abusive reasons (including, in this case, unfounded allegations or insinuations of antisemitism) has the effect of harassment or gaming the system. This is particularly so in the topic area of the Arab-Israeli conflict, where there are entrenched groups of editors each associated with a particular point of view who have been sniping at each other through various processes for, in some cases, years on end. AE must not become another weapon with which to pursue factional conflicts, but it must only be used to address genuine cases (or risks) of misconduct. In addition, the appellant does not indicate in their appeal that they understand why they were sanctioned, what they would now do differently if once again allowed to participate here, or in which situation it would have been beneficial for Wikipedia or the AE process if they had been allowed to participate at AE. Finally, they have made no mainspace edits and hardly any other edits since having been banned from AE on 6 July. This is not a good sign also, because it does not allow us to ascertain whether the problems that caused the ban have since disappeared. For these reasons, I recommend to decline the appeal. Sandstein 08:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000editI am "involved" in the sense that I edit in the Israel/Palestine area and have had numerous content disagreements with NMMNG. I also argued against the AE case that NMMNG brought against Nishidani, that led to his AE ban. So I am not speaking as an ally of NMMNG when I say that I do not believe he was acting in bad faith. Biased, yes, mistaken, yes, bad faith, no. NMMNG should set a much higher threshold before accusing someone of antisemitism. Meanwhile, I suggest to administrators that they ignore the slanging match between NMMNG and Sandstein and bring the following compromise judgement: adjust the indefinite AE ban into a one-month ban, starting at the original date (July 6). Zerotalk 05:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Pluto2012edit(Nb: I am involved in the topic of the I-P articles and had some interactions with NMMNG that were not bad but long time ago...) I tried to make NMMNG realize around 8 months ago that his involvment in contentious articles was not good for him : here. He didn't follow the advice and recently expressed himself his "disgust" for wikipedia : [89] He has become a problem and his request against Nishidani is just an example. I fear that he will soon be totally banned if he doesn't cool down. Assuming his Good Faith (WP:AGF) or not is not the question today. He is currently no more here for the project because of some bitterness and he doesn't Assume Good Faith at all on his side. I would suggest he takes a few weeks/months wikibreak and comes back with a better mood. He should consider the proposal. I think the community could leave this ban immediately to show/prove him that we think he could be very usefull for the project but with another mind. And if he understands the advice properly, he will not edits AE pages any more and self-ban from these... Pluto2012 (talk) 07:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidaniedit
Statement by ZScarpiaeditWith regard to a change in behaviour, I'd appreciate a reduction in the constant sarcasm and general belligerence. An attempt to moderate exagerrations and misrepresentations made would be nice too. ← ZScarpia 21:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by No More Mr Nice GuyeditComment by uninvolved A Quest for KnowledgeeditI recall the RfE filed by No More Mr Nice Guy. At the time, I did not post a comment because the evidence presented was too subtle to make an accurate assessment of the RfE. Perhaps No More Mr Nice Guy was seeing something that didn't exist? Honestly, I don't know. But I do know that sometimes there are conduct issues that are genuinely legitimate but are difficult to discern by someone without lengthy experience with the dispute. And so No More Mr Nice Guy was banned from WP:ARBPIA-related AE discussions. But perhaps AE saw something that didn't exist? Again, I honestly don't know. But I do know that Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia and it should not be discounted without good evidence.
Comment by uninvolved Yogesh Khandkeedit
Result of the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guyedit
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Second arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow
edit| Appeal granted.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Statement by TheShadowCroweditGiantSnowman did not even specify that ban exactly I violated, so I'll assume its my only one: Wikipedia:ARBAA2. As can be seen on the topic ban discussion in my talk, another Admin, User:Ymblanter, was under the impression I violated the ban with this edit. Note that he didn't give the block himself, GiantSnowman jumped in and did that. I soon pointed out that, in the words of the Admin who assigned the block, Sports men and women and other general sports articles which happen to be based in Armenia, as long as it does not concern any political or cultural controversy, should be okay although you should still exercise caution". Ymblanter has yet to give a counter argument, though it seems he has none. User:Sandstein, another Admin, had soon showed up to say that GiantSnowman was wrong to block me for one edit, but I should have been blocked for another on a category. After I replied, Sandstein admitted "You are correct that the ban does not apply to categories, as it was phrased as "all articles, talk pages, and discussions covered under WP:ARBAA2". Accordingly, your category edits did not violate the topic ban. Because all your other (article) edits appear to concern sports topics, I am now of the view that you did not violate your topic ban and that the block should be lifted". Although two Admins already saw no reason for the block, GiantSnowman still refuses to lift it. Therefore, I call upon a third party to judge. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by GiantSnowmanedit
Quick response to Sandstein (talk · contribs) below - re:INVOLVED, that hadn't even crossed my mind, as I would still have made the block even if I hadn't participated in the RM - though I completely see how it can be reasonably construed that way, and I am happy for my block to be lifted purely on that basis (with another uninvolved admin free to re-block if they see fit, as well as to trout me as applicable). GiantSnowman 20:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Statement by CT CoopereditWesley is correct that I'm officially absent at the moment - however I'm still visiting and after reviewing the above it is clear that a few things need to be clarified here. Firstly, to be clear, yes I did ban TheShadowCrow from "all articles, talk pages, and discussions covered under WP:ARBAA2 [meaning Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts]" for an indefinite period and that ban remains enforce indefinitely barring community consensus or an ArbCom decision to lift it. This ban is a "generic" WP:AA2 one with the only amendment I have made (as noted in the logs) being the closing of any perceived exemption for obvious vandalism. This was implemented on grounds that the TheShadowCrow was unable to correctly identify what was and wasn't vandalism. Separately from that, from what I remember, I have made two clarifications on nature of the topic ban. The first being that Turkey comes under "related ethnic conflicts", so ethnic disputes related to Turkey are covered despite multiple claims by TheShadowCrow that they are exempt. The second was about sports, in which I told TheShadowCrow that "Sports men and women and other general sports articles which happen to be based in Armenia, as long as it does not concern any political or cultural controversy, should be okay although you should still exercise caution". I need to make clear here that this was a clarification, not an amendment, meaning simply that I did not intend to narrow or widen the scope of the existing ban - just to clarify what it already covered. That's why nothing was logged on that subject. I cannot fully recall what thought process led me to make that statement. However, I would suggest that my reading of "Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts" implies that only political/cultural content related to Armenia or Azerbaijan is covered - I couldn't see any real problem with TheShadowCrow adding non-ethnic conflict related sporting material to biographies where the person covered happened to be Armenian. However, I can now see that "broadly construed" arguably contradicts that view. So I'm willing to accept that my interpretation of the ban is wrong if ArbCom do or have already said so, or if most admins/users with an informed opinion on the subject say so. I'm sorry that the topic ban I imposed wasn't as clear as it should have been and that I gave what appears to be incorrect advise to TheShadowCrow, which has lead to unnecessary drama. However, that apology comes with two caveats. The first being that I was actually only extending the topic ban that another admin had imposed on TheShadowCrow from six months to indefinite, when it became clear that it wasn't appropriate for the ban to expire. I didn't at the time see any need to change the wording. The second is that I advised TheShadowCrow that the idea of a topic ban was to go and find a completely different set of topics to edit and I explicitly warned him that editing around the edges of the topic ban, as I put it, was going to lead to trouble - I have been proven right time and time again on that point. On what should be done now - I would recommend that the block be lifted as it seems clear that TheShadowCrow thought he was editing outside the scope of the topic ban. For the moment, I am also rescinding my clarification stating that "Sports men and women and other general sports articles which happen to be based in Armenia, as long as it does not concern any political or cultural controversy, should be okay although you should still exercise caution". This means that the TheShadowCrow should disregard that advise and cease editing Armenia-Azerbaijan related sports articles until there is agreement or an ArbCom ruling clarifying otherwise. CT Cooper · talk 21:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
@Sandstein: I accept your analysis of the situation for the most part. I'm happy to discuss the merits of the topic ban, although I think I should reiterate that I wasn't the original imposer of the topic ban - I was just extending a six month topic imposed by The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs) to indefinite. I say that as I think any new discussions over modifying/lifting the ban should involve the person that originally imposed it. The Blade of the Northern Lights should now be notified of this discussion given that I have mentioned his/her name. CT Cooper · talk 21:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)editI have had run-ins with this editor in the past on sports articles and have had to bring a few instances to ANI. Basically, TheShadowCrow has time and time again shown to be unable to edit with a neutral point of view into sports articles especially when it involves Armenians. Not only that, but TSC has also shown a edit warring and disruptive attitude when challenged on any these offending edits. There was a topic ban on TheShadowCrow for 3 months primarily due to edits on several Armenia athlete's articles. Having read everything that has gone on since then, it looks like TSC didn't violate his AA2 restrictions due to a technicality only as the offending edit was on a category and not an article. However, the spirit of the restriction should have applied to all space within Wikipedia. That said, I would wholly support a lifting of the sports exemption as this has only led to more trouble than it was worth and offenses relating to sports articles were the reason for the prior topic ban. The would mean keeping out of all Armenian related content, articles, categories, ect. Based on past experience, the user has shown either an unwillingness or inability to edit such content without introducing bias. BearMan998 (talk) 00:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the second appeal by TheShadowCroweditResult of the second appeal by TheShadowCrowedit
On balance, I recommend proceeding according to CT Cooper's recommendation (that is, lifting the block and noting the rescission of the sports exception to the topic ban). GiantSnowman is not to blame for making an enforcement block based on the topic ban as logged at WP:ARBAA2#Log of blocks and bans, which didn't then mention any sports exception. GiantSnowman also makes a valid argument by highlighting that TheShadowCrow's contributions to a renaming discussion at Talk:Khoren Oganesian do not fall under the sports exception, because they concern the question of whether the Russian or Armenian spelling of the name should be used, which appears to be a question related to the politics of the region. I'd be inclined to defer to the blocking admin's discretion in this matter, were it not for the fact that the same discussion also indicates that GiantSnowman imposed the block after disagreeing with TheShadowCrow about the merits of the renaming, which makes the block appear unadvisable, and probably requires us to lift it. CT Cooper's decision to undo the sports exception is understandable, because I am under the impression that TheShadowCrow has great difficulty understanding the meaning and scope of their topic ban – so it should be as uncomplicated as possible. This is without prejudice to any possible appeal against the topic ban per se, about whose merits I have not yet had the opportunity to form an opinion. Sandstein 19:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
However, it seems clear that the scope of TSC's existing indef ban also needs clarification. It has been suggested above that the sports exemption should be rescinded as a means of clarification; I would be reluctant to support this because little evidence has been presented that TSC's edits in relation to sport have been problematic. In fact, in principle I see no issue with DS-topic banned users editing about their own country or ethnic group providing those edits don't relate to ethnic disputes. However, like GiantSnowman, I think ethnic-related naming disputes would normally fall under the scope of a DS topic ban. I note also that a question has arisen with regard to whether or not categories should be included in a DS-related topic ban. I would say that categories should not be exempted from DS-related bans regardless of whether or not the ban specifically mentions them, because the intent of a topic ban is to prevent a user making problematic edits in the given topic area, and edits to categories can clearly be highly controversial. The wording of DS may need to be somewhat modified to clarify this. Gatoclass (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
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