oursin: Brush the Wandering Hedgehog by the fire (Default)
[personal profile] oursin

(And resisting the temptation to entitle this 'Horsey keep your tail up'.)

Article in today's Guardian on the controversial movie that attempts to humanise the bizarre world of zoophilia.

Devor decided that a highly stylised approach would be the most effective to counter the widespread dismissal of these men and their orientation. Anyone seeking titillation will be disappointed. "I aestheticised the sleaze out of it," says Devor.

Which makes me go hmmmm... in a dubious tone. A problematic choice, surely?

And on the relationship between the animals' visible arousal and actual consent - did they really want to have sex with a human? I think we should be told.

Problematic, and rather creepy. I think there is a distinction to be made between having loving and caring relationships with animals, and using them for sex. The arguments seem very similar to those sometimes invoked to justify paedophilia.

Date: 2007-05-17 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] panjianlien.livejournal.com
Several years ago I was at a party, talking to someone about urban legends involving sex with animals (as one does, surely) and the other person in the conversation made the comment that to her it seemed odd that people would get so upset about bestiality when as a culture we don't get upset about killing and eating animals. Why should it be so awful to bugger a goat, say, if it isn't awful to kill and eat the same goat?

I allowed as how I simply didn't have an answer to that.

Date: 2007-05-17 02:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flats.livejournal.com
There's a pretty good case that one's the 'natural order of things' and the other isn't - but I've studied too much anthro to allow "That's natural" to make any sort of argument without massive qualifications...

Date: 2007-05-17 02:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thera-flu.livejournal.com
I was going to invoke the "it's all about consent" argument as that's what usually is used in the fetish world. Children can't give consent. Animals can't give consent. So, no matter how kinky you are, those two are off limits.

However, the eating and killing of same goat? I'm sure it can't and wouldn't give consent to that either. So now I'm flummoxed.

Date: 2007-05-17 02:26 pm (UTC)
ext_6283: Brush the wandering hedgehog by the fire (Default)
From: [identity profile] oursin.livejournal.com
Maybe it's because they are killed and eaten? There is an episode in Isherwood's Down There On A Visit in which he feels distinctly queasy after the revelation that one of the Greek boys had sex with the chicken they've just eaten before cooking it - even though as he comments it was thoroughly cooked afterwards.

Date: 2007-05-17 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dhole.livejournal.com
It's not actually about the goat.

If non-consensual canabalism was a serious problem, it's possible that people would be a bit disturbed by any sort of meat eating, even eating goats. But, at the moment, that's not really an issue.

Non-consensual sex, on the other hand, is something that's a live concern. So people get a bit squicked out by people for whom consent clearly isn't something that they need before intercourse.

Or at least, that's my theory.

Date: 2007-05-17 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cija.livejournal.com
Why should it be so awful to bugger a goat, say, if it isn't awful to kill and eat the same goat? I allowed as how I simply didn't have an answer to that.

I'd have asked that person why it's so awful to rape death-row convicts, then. I mean hey, we're going to kill them, and unlike the poor goats, we even (theoretically) think they deserve it. Some people would hold up "human dignity" to explain why it is Just Not the Same, but I don't think one can defend goat-molestation and posit a special human dignity at the same time; it just doesn't work.

Anyway the fact that we can kill and eat animals compounds the offense, it doesn't lessen it. The more power we have over a creature, the more grotesque it is to sexually exploit it. I mean, this is why people are horrified at the sexual abuse of comatose hospital patients, even if they don't think the victims will ever know about it. Also most people at least pretend to believe that sex of whatever variety is properly performed between more-or-less equal partners; if somebody's comfortable fucking a living being they would have no problem butchering and consuming, that would suggest a lot of things to me, all of them horrible.

Date: 2007-05-17 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilliburlero.livejournal.com
Well, as a guilty and conflicted meat-eater I might suggest that two wrongs don't make a right: if we were to be quite moral about it, humans should neither eat animals nor have sex with them.

The squick factor here I think is not so much in the actual act of sex with an animal (though that might be dangerous for both animal and human health), I think, as in the zoophile's notion that the animal is somehow consenting to this (and enjoying it).

Date: 2007-05-17 02:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rysmiel.livejournal.com
"I aestheticized the sleaze out of it" really wants to go into common circulation in the same fashion as "the dog ate my homework".

Date: 2007-05-17 02:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] green-knight.livejournal.com
The arguments seem very similar to those sometimes invoked to justify paedophilia.

They are exactly the same.

I used to hang out on equestrian forums, and at some point, if you do that long enough, and are unlucky enough, you will come across zoophiles justifying themselves. To my ear, there was absolutely no distinction between the reported justifications of pedophilia and theirs - it's all about 'having loving relationships' with someone who 'gives sublimal signals that they are willing cooperators'.

And yes, the brain bleach would have been quite handy.

On the one hand, I get the impression that, well, I used to live in the country where the men are men and the sheep are nervous. It's happened before, it will happen again, and at least they're not molesting children or obsessing about adults.

On the other hand, the justifications are close enough that I feel a deep sense of unease regardless. The zoophiles were bad enough; but when the discussion suddenly turned and began to justify pedophilia - after all, exactly the same arguments were used for both - I felt extremely uneasy, not to mention violated, and that is why I cannot regard zoophilia as a mostly harmless eccentricty.

On a much more practical level, small dogs that hump everything in sight might be amusing, but a doberman-sized dog - or a stallion/gelding - that has been conditioned to think of humans as being involved in sex is decidedly dangerous.

Breeding stallions are difficult enough to handle at times without the possibility to transfering that behaviour to anyone who might encounter the horse in stable or field.

Date: 2007-05-17 06:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fox-in-sand.livejournal.com
Very good points about stallions/large dogs, especially in view of the how that man died at the beginning of the Guardian article. I am glad I haven't come across this so far on equestrian forums, nasty.

Date: 2007-05-17 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lalouve.livejournal.com
I think one major difference between killing and eating a goat and buggering it is that the person killing and eating it does not justify it by citing an emotional connection. No one claims (I hope) that they have a loving connection with the goat which makes the goat consent to being killed and eaten. The lack of consent in clearly visible.
However, once consent is argued (for things which the animal might find as painful as being killed - I am aware of the sexual assaults on horses which happen regularly), the animal is given a status of human adulthood which can be used to justify a lot of abuse.

Date: 2007-05-17 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fox-in-sand.livejournal.com
I think another difference here between killing and eating animals and zoophilia is welfare; the utilitarian view when it comes to breeding animals for meat tends to be that it's okay as long as the animal has been looked after humanely and are given a humane death; the killing and eating of an animal is not welfare, the quality of life is welfare (I realise that many vegetarians will disagree with me here, but this is what I've come to believe as a veterinary student).

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