SPN 217 redux

I don't think you're completely in the outfield. I'm less forgiving on point 1 than you are, but I blame the writers more than anything else; my last post on the issue notwithstanding, I assume the boys had that more-detailed conversation and we just didn't witness it. It's Croatoan, again, basically.

Point 2--I think you're likely right, and Dean didn't do it to make Sam feel bad, but because he needs Sam to stop letting things happen to him and start taking responsibility for himself. The fact that it means Sam now has an innocent life on his hands--well, I'm not sure whether Dean will make the connection between that and Sam's potential for going Evil.

I do think a lot of the problem with #1 is the writing, and I like her, but I'm not as in love with Sera Gamble as a lot of people seem to be. Thing is, SPN is a show where I mostly don't feel like being analytical about the writing/production/casting/whatever aspects. ::shrugs::

I read the scenes exactly the same way you did.

So, not crazy, yay! :)

YAY us!

My hangups with the ending are all practical: I spent some of yesterday evening discussing things like, "What's the best way to kill someone (quickly/mercifully) with one gunshot -- that doesn't splatter the shooter? Aren't there ways to kill someone that are less messy and easier to clean up? Considering it's day, and maybe the full moon period is even over, why not drive her out someplace pretty and quiet and remote and make a whole extended funeral out of it?"

I had not thought through the details of the interpersonal stuff, but I think your interpretation is a legit one. (Maybe not the only one, but yours makes sense.)

Oh, HA. Yeah, I just roll with that kind of stuff for this show.

And there obviously are a number of ways to take any scene, much less that one, but I'd started poking my head into other people's ep comments again the last few weeks after a long time of not doing that, and was a little surprised to see no one go this route.

Point 1 - completely agree. Madison is not their responsibility month after month. But she will be if they let her live.

Point 2 - I agree that Sam expected Dean to be the one to shoot Madison. But I think Dean thought Sam would do it - he cannot imagine Sam wanting to shift responsibility away from himself. So Dean's offer ("Sammy, I got this one") is sincere but he fully expects Sam to take responsibility as Madison asks and do it himself.

On #1, really, there was no good answer. Sucks any way they go.

On #2, hm, in this situation, yes, I think Dean thought Sam would do it. But I don't think he thought it would happen without prompting, or he wouldn't have gone after Sam; he would have stayed there with Madison and expected Sam to come back. So I guess I'm kind of "ehhh, well..." on the idea that he can't imagine Sam would shift the responsibility.

I think point one is an issue the writers should have addressed more clearly. It wouldn't have taken more than two minutes of conversation, especially if they'd done a little more set up earlier in the episode - they never explain anything about werewolves at the beginning except that they're badass killing machines. Nothing about why they were killing a whole week before the full moon, why the hearts were ripped out, etc. And they could have had more than "We called Bobby" as the end all and be all of research, since Sam was *so desperate* to save her.

I think they bobbled the execution, much like in Croatoan, where the tension the characters are meant to be feeling hasn't been adequately conveyed to the viewer.

In thinking about it more, I think my biggest problem is Madison's quick acceptance of her fate when she'd been shown as someone who had learned to take control of her life, which is also why I find it problematic that she couldn't do it to herself. I realize that the show was going for the parallel of Sam extracting the promise from Dean (and the fabulous final shot with Dean's flinch), but I believe Sam *would* end himself if he had to - he certainly asked Dean to leave him the gun in Croatoan - but if he's still willing to do that, then it's probably not time for him to do it yet, which is why he needs Dean to make that promise (to do it when there's nothing left of Sam in whatever he becomes).

As for two, I'd need to rewatch again, but I like the way you're looking at it, if only because I have been waiting for Sam to take some responsibility.

There are so many times in so many shows where I think, They just needed to add one more line HERE, or even just A WORD over THERE, and wonder why that couldn't happen instead of, say, the 10 second pan over Madison's face after her ex disappears from in front of her window.

Anyway. I explain Madison's quick decision away in my own head as that last scene not being the first time she's thought about how awful it is to live with what she's already done, or the first time she's been horrified at the reality that it could happen again. I figure in that time between Sam disappearing out of her apartment and when she catches them doing a crappy job of lurking, she had some time to think about what she'd done when she was the werewolf. I mean, she didn't see what she'd done to her ex, but she saw up close the torn and bloody mess she'd made of her boss, so it's not like those deaths were some vague concept.

Doing it herself, well, we never saw them tell her that it had to be a shot to the heart (again, sloppy), but in all the cuteness of Dean's excitement, the writers made a point at the beginning of telling us that. And when he thought he was infected, Sam in could have killed himself easily with a single head shot; I would imagine that shooting yourself in the heart, however, especially with a handgun, is physically quite difficult to do without screwing up.

...and now I wonder if a silver knife to the heart would also work, because that's been proven all over the place to be relatively easy to do to yourself if you actually know where to stab.

Well, we know that, but did Madison? As you say, we didn't see them tell her that. So they could have had her say she'd do it herself and had Dean point out that it wasn't likely to work, etc. and then she could have asked Sam to do it, and there could still have been the big angsty moment, but it would have felt more in line with the way they tried to present her character, as someone who had taken control of her life.

Very true. That's where my "I don't want to think about the writer/writing!" doesn't stand up, though -- I blame it on Sera Gamble being kinda blunt-force with the big moment when writing on her own.

Which brings me back around to taking out of the scene that when Dean went after Sam, it was to nudge/push Sam into facing that he needed to do this, not Dean

I keep going back and forth on this. On the one hand, I agree with you that the whole thing with Dean following Sam away from Madison rather than just shooting her was strange, especially considering that I believe it would have been much easier for Dean to shoot her himself than to see Sam do it. (Which is not to say it would have been *easy* for him to shoot her, of course, but that would have been the sort of weight he's used to, the sort of weight he's been trying to prepare himself and build up defenses against this whole season. Sam, he's got not defenses against.) So if he *didn't* just shoot her outright, then there must have been a reason why.

But on the other hand, that last conversation didn't feel to me like Dean pushing Sam into accepting the fact that he was the one who had to kill her, not even if he was trying to be subtle about it. It felt more like... he was recognizing that Sam had already made the decision to kill her -- that if Madison had to be killed, Sam *needed* to be the one to kill her, even if he was balking at the task. Because the way I read that scene, Dean didn't *want* Sam to be the one to kill her, any more than Sam did -- he was almost begging Sam to let him kill her, and that's not how I would imagine Dean pushing Sam into shooting her, no matter how subtle he was trying to be.

The way I see it, it's not that he went after Sam to say "sorry, I've got this" -- he went after Sam to say "let me do this", because he could see that Sam hadn't accepted Madison's death yet, and he couldn't kill her until Sam did. (Back to what

hossgal has been saying about Dean needing Sam's permission, or at least acceptance, before he killed someone.) So yes, in that sense, I think that for Dean, it was like killing that woman in Croatoan -- he couldn't do it until Sam actually *said* that she should die. I'm not sure if he expected Sam to step up to the plate and kill her himself or not, though. I have a feeling that he would have accepted whatever decision Sam made about that. (*I* wouldn't have, but Dean is more forgiving of Sam than I am. *g*) But he needed Sam to *make* that decision, to accept Madison's death -- not just walk away from the problem.

Mostly, though, I put it down to awkward writing. And SPN is the sort of show where I'm willing to give a blind eye to awkward writing when I feel like I understand what the writers were *trying* to do...

I think we're only just a little off from each other, actually.

It felt more like... he was recognizing that Sam had already made the decision to kill her -- that if Madison had to be killed, Sam *needed* to be the one to kill her, even if he was balking at the task. Because the way I read that scene, Dean didn't *want* Sam to be the one to kill her, any more than Sam did -- he was almost begging Sam to let him kill her, and that's not how I would imagine Dean pushing Sam into shooting her, no matter how subtle he was trying to be.

I agree with pretty much all of this -- he knew that Sam knew he had to do it, and he didn't want Sam to have to do it -- but I didn't feel like he was begging Sam to let him do it instead. ::shrugs:: I think that's just...different readings. If everyone read every moment the same way, life would get boring. *g*

I'm not sure if he expected Sam to step up to the plate and kill her himself or not, though. I have a feeling that he would have accepted whatever decision Sam made about that. (*I* wouldn't have, but Dean is more forgiving of Sam than I am. *g*) But he needed Sam to *make* that decision, to accept Madison's death -- not just walk away from the problem.

Oh yeah. Really, that's where part of the pushing is (which I don't mean as "being pushy," more...steering? Gah, my brain still isn't working right). Dean really didn't know if Sam would do it, and if he didn't, then Dean needed Sam to at least say that it had to happen, make the decision, as you said. But he had to push Sam to step up one way or the other, and (I think) he wanted that step to be Sam shooting Madison even though he wasn't at all happy that Sam needed to do it in the first place. While in one way it would have been easier on Dean if Sam had just given him the okay and Dean had shot Madison, that was not what Dean wanted or knew the situation/him/Sam needed. Does that make sense? I can't even tell any more. Oy, stopping now.

(1) The problem is, you don't need to find someone who is unfamiliar with Buffy or Angel or Harry Potter. You need to find someone who is unfamiliar with *logic*. Logically, there is no need to kill Madison right then and there and by Sam and a lot of good reasons to wait or a lot of objections to go through first; it is almost irrelevant which reasons or objections someone raises because there are *so many* that the show did not deal with and that many people are going to need in order to accept something as weighty as declaring a human death both necessary and just.

*Almost* irrelevant which reasons -- because I do keep hearing people say "Of course Madison would escape," and the problem is, there is no "of course" about it. Sam locked her up in a typical closet with minimal improvisation. Maybe werewolves are really strong and he was really lucky. Or maybe she could be dealt with as easily as finding someone who will lock her up for a month, putting her in silver-lined chains, drugging her food, giving her NO-DOZ, or cutting her Achilles' tendon. When the Winchesters declare they're killing her because she could hurt other people, then we need to see that other people are in imminent danger (as with Glen) or that there are no less drastic options available.

(2) I don't quite share your impression because I don't see any lack of sincerity in Dean's offers to shoot Madison. I do think Dean was unwilling to shoot her without Sam's acceptance, although I disagree with the "permission" aspect raised by some commenters -- Dean has never requested or needed Sam's permission to kill, and Sam has never offered it. Sam has spent a lot of time arguing Dean out of kills. I strongly disagree with the "Croatoan" reading some people suggest, as much because of body language as anything else: Dean isn't asking permission to kill Beverley Tanner, he's asking confirmation of her infection. He's already decided it's right to kill her. In "Houses of the Holy," he's determined to stop Sam from killing the person the "angel" identified, and there are a lot of possible reasons for this, but the most direct one is that he doesn't trust Sam to make this decision while under supernatural influence -- as Sam did not trust him to make this decision in "Croatoan" while under emotional stress. Dean's decision not to kill Duane is made up by a lot of factors, but simply bowing to Sam's control doesn't strike me as one of them; accepting that his own judgment may be faulty due to the burdens he's under, however, does.

or frankly, who hadn't been steeped in U.S. media and culture since forever.

My problem with this is, the show seems want to have it both ways, winking at us with the "You're Scully" and the metal bands and homages to The Exorcist and so on but expecting us to be tone-deaf when the storyboard could use a good werewolf but never mind the rest of it. I'm not that agile as a reader. And some things are really hard to ignore.

About your reading of Dean: the only scene in the entire ep that got through my extended and extensive squick was the moment when Dean gently reaches over and takes the weapon from Sam. There was both tenderness and resignation in his face and in the move, I thought. Sam's been yelling that it's not a black-and-white world and Dean's showing him that even where there are shades of gray you sometimes have to be responsible for the yes or the no. It makes perfect sense to me that part of "saving" Sam, to Dean, might mean getting him to walk the hunter walk and step up, make the call and execute. He wasn't going to force him but he wasn't going to take over without letting Sam wrestle with it first.

interesting, and you've given me thinky thoughts about the whole episode as well as the show itself. i'm rather fried tonight, but somehow it's layering together and ending up coming out as something about how different cultures examine and understand the magical, what's unknown, living, and mortality.

i hope this fits (or even makes sense. *g*), but it strikes me that our current western culture has a concept of mortality that although it's affected by the knowledge science brings us, is also so tinged by denial that the idea of not being able to save someone has perhaps become a moral issue. not sure, maybe on some levels, at some times that fits, maybe not. i'm still pondering it all....and being a woman of very little brain.

There are, however, at least two big reasons I can think of for why Dean would want Sam to do this -- getting him to better understand what he keeps asking Dean to do, and weaning him a little further off the unconscious ways he relies on Dean -- as well as a host of smaller ones, but I've babbled enough for now.

Keep babbling, because where you're going here makes sense to me. (I started rewatching the ep last night, & then got cut off the last 15 minutes or so, which means I'll have to finish it tonight instead. In other words...I don't have much more to add till I watch it again, and maybe not even then.)

I rewatched the episode last night, and I don't think Sam left the room to avoid thinking about shooting Madison or to let Dean take that responsibility from him. He left to gather himself to do it, in a situation that didn’t require instant action. He let himself break down just for a minute, before facing up to what she'd asked him to do.

Dean moved immediately to see after Sam. He was fairly sure Madison wasn't going to run. So he had the moment to look after Sam and try to take this burden, if Sam would let him, that is. He took the gun from Madison so she wouldn't have to look at it right then, and probably to remove a weapon from her, just in case. That was a bit of kindness and practicality.

I have no impression that Sam expected, wanted, or needed Dean to kill Madison for him. He knew what had to be done, he took a moment to deal with the emotion, and then went through with it.

Sam's never had a problem making hard decisions, or standing by them afterward. He doesn't second-guess himself afterward, because he's already tried to think out all the angles beforehand, and once he's acted, well, there's no point in it - just learn and go on.

After Sam's decision to leave the only world he knew and try to make a new life for himself at a young age, I'm amazed that fandom can perceive him as unwilling to follow through on his convictions, or to allow Dean to shoulder his burdens. Sam's done all he can to ensure his own control over his life, including asking Dean to kill the thing that Sam might become if Sam can't find a way to stop it himself.

I'm betting they'd be tilted toward someone who mattered greatly to a hunter coming out on the very wrong end of a werewolf encounter at some point along the line...and that hunter then going to the ends of both the natural and supernatural worlds to cure that someone instead of taking him/her down without questions.

*blinks* You know, I never actually put this together in my head. But it makes perfect sense.

why in the world John used to speculate heavily enough on how to cure lycanthropy that he's got a note in his journal that both Sam and Dean remember right off

...goddamnit.

*sighs*

*opens word file*

I can get enough plot bunnies on my own, thankyouverymuch, I do *not* need help.

*goes back to writing*

- hg