Rant and Artdump
Sep. 28th, 2006 10:51 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
armainahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bmj-H7o2v0&NR
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3_fL9oBk84
AWESOME KEFKA COSPLAYER
Okay, I'm really getting sick and tired of the 'witch hunts' on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
art_theft
I mean I've seen things as rediclous as someone upset about someone that was influenced by a picture of theirs. The style wasn't copied, the image wasn't traced, very smilar, definately inspired, but my GOSH UGH. You'd think someone'd be flattered by that.
That and I'm really getting annoyed with all the young artists getting called out on for mild references, things that only look mildly similar. Honestly, that's something I expect to see, as long as it's not traced, what is the big deal. HONESTLY what is the big deal? I think what upsets me the most is, these minor 'infringes' are something -all- of us did at one point. Sure maybe at the time we didn't have any way to post it, but we still did it, so I am really bothered that people are repremanding these young artists for something they themselves also probably did
How about, oh, I don't know, HELPING THEM OUT. Give them tips, point them in the right directions, make them crave that desire to explore and learn more, to experiment, to move by what they like and not get caught up in this horrid rat race of whats 'cool' and 'popular'
Of course, this makes me think back to artists of old. I'm taking an art history class, and so often the same subjects are done, artists learn off each other, new styles and techniques are developed. This kind of learning has been going on for YEARS. We learn off each other, we are influenced by each other. So why has this suddenly become so wrong?
*deep breath* OKAY I'M DONE
Doodles from Art History.. heh
I listen to music and get poses in my head.
Team Fortress TWOOOOOOOO. I'ma Scout, Zer0's an Engenier. Yeah, we excited.
Because of the character quiz thing, I realised a fight between Ego and Dameon would be.. rather interesting
Pretty pretty Shiro-Ma, since I haven't drawn her in a while.
trying to work on a ref sheet for Talon
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X3_fL9oBk84
AWESOME KEFKA COSPLAYER
Okay, I'm really getting sick and tired of the 'witch hunts' on
art_theftI mean I've seen things as rediclous as someone upset about someone that was influenced by a picture of theirs. The style wasn't copied, the image wasn't traced, very smilar, definately inspired, but my GOSH UGH. You'd think someone'd be flattered by that.
That and I'm really getting annoyed with all the young artists getting called out on for mild references, things that only look mildly similar. Honestly, that's something I expect to see, as long as it's not traced, what is the big deal. HONESTLY what is the big deal? I think what upsets me the most is, these minor 'infringes' are something -all- of us did at one point. Sure maybe at the time we didn't have any way to post it, but we still did it, so I am really bothered that people are repremanding these young artists for something they themselves also probably did
How about, oh, I don't know, HELPING THEM OUT. Give them tips, point them in the right directions, make them crave that desire to explore and learn more, to experiment, to move by what they like and not get caught up in this horrid rat race of whats 'cool' and 'popular'
Of course, this makes me think back to artists of old. I'm taking an art history class, and so often the same subjects are done, artists learn off each other, new styles and techniques are developed. This kind of learning has been going on for YEARS. We learn off each other, we are influenced by each other. So why has this suddenly become so wrong?
*deep breath* OKAY I'M DONE
Doodles from Art History.. heh
I listen to music and get poses in my head.
Team Fortress TWOOOOOOOO. I'ma Scout, Zer0's an Engenier. Yeah, we excited.
Because of the character quiz thing, I realised a fight between Ego and Dameon would be.. rather interesting
Pretty pretty Shiro-Ma, since I haven't drawn her in a while.
trying to work on a ref sheet for Talon
no subject
Date: 2006-09-28 06:23 pm (UTC)The problem is people no longer look at art as a skill based craft, it's all about expressing their soooooooooooooul and such shallow PC crap nowadays.
This is why so many artists remain mediocre, because they don't approach art understanding that it is a craft that can be mastered, they're just doing art to "express themselves" what they don't realise is that "expressing yourself" is for private sketch books, real art is something you share so it should be the best you can do.
At the same time it makes them rediculously defensive of their artwork, they've got a heck of an emotional connection to it because they don't treat it as a craft or learn to step back from it.
I think the witch hunts are rediculous as well.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-28 09:35 pm (UTC)I draw to express myself. And yes I draw from my heart and soul and place an extreme amount of myself into each piece. I don't look at art as merely a skill, and I don't think it's all about improvement; I think it's about fun and enjoyment and sharing idea's and creations with other eople. It's the only part of my day that keeps me sane, and to such a degree, that I will never use it as a trade or a craft. I sell prints (very irregularily) and that's it. No art-based job, no commissions, and I hardly ever do trades. My art is completely for myself, and I post it only to share the idea's surrounding it. I always make sure that the people who decide to watch me, know this. I'm not in the community for anything other than expressing myself, having fun, and sharing idea's.
And yes, I post what I draw, even the "shallow PC crap" as you so kindly put it. =) I don't care if there are mistakes in my art, as I embrace every part of art and see beauty in even "mistakes". One person's mistake, is another's perfection, and vice versa.
So in essence, I'm the anti-thesis to everything you said. You may think I'm an idiot or a snop or a popularity-wannabe because I post stuff you deem unworthy, but I assure you I'm not and I don't care about popularity.
I merely have a different outlook on art than you do. It's kind of unfair that you judge other artists so harshly because they think of art differently. My art isn't any less real than yours, simply because I have a connection to it that you don't to yours (and this is what you said..."expressing yourself is for sketchbooks, REAL art is for posting"). I respect your opinion, and most certainly don't think you of any less of an artist or any less of your art because you look at art differently. So I really don't think it's fair to say that people like me, who DO have a deeper connection, don't post "real" art.
I don't go around throwing hissy fits at every artist who draw's an eye like I do. I encourage others to gain something from my art, and while I do have limitations on it's usage, I also encourage young artists and really any artist, to try different things and use my work for reference should they wish to. As long as it's for their own *learning* and not a "Hurhur lok at wat i dru durdur!" than I really, truly don't care. And if they show me (which I always encourage as I'm happy to see their results), I always favorite the image (should it be on DA) or give them tips if they'd like, etc.
I don't like the witch hunts anymore than any other sane artist who doesn't have their head up their arse, and in fact hate it so much, that I left the art theft community almost a year ago and aren't afraid to say it's a horrible community based on principle. With the right management and guidance it could indeed be a help, but as is, it's a curse on the community with hunters out to fill some sort of non-existence quota.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:01 am (UTC)Firstly, I meant no offence to people like you, my criticism is aimed purely at those who baby their art and act like it's another appendage, ie writhing in mock mortal agony and screeching rip anytime anyone produces something vaguely like theirs.
Secondly "shallow PC crap" is what I use to denote those people who are like "the artist is everything and all that because they're an artist" they fuss as if picking up a pencil makes their toes unsteppable on. Draw something vaguely like them? Sacriliege, burn the unbeliever plagerist who defiles the sacred temple of "artist so and so".
I don't think you're so on the other side as you think you are, do you try to improve artwise? Do you experiment? Do you get pleasure from progressing in terms of rendering skill? I would suspect the answer to all those is yes, don't get me wrong, I love communicating ideas, I like to share, I do have a deeper connection but I can't share if what I'm drawing isn't clear to anyone else but me. Art requires two sides and it's more and more frequent that people choose to only bother with one, the "deep connection".
I believe people cannot do one without the other so I despair that "art" is turning into an unbalanced one sided bucket of waste because people aren't willing to work or even acknowledge that there are things other than feelings involved when they create a piece of art.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:13 am (UTC)And no, I don't get pleasure from improvement. The only pleasure I get out of art is the act of drawing itself, and the chance to get my feelings down on paper.
The fact that someone might not get what I put into it isn't of any matter to me. A lot of people will get different things out of one picture I've done. I like that, embrace it, and hope for it. I give my feelings and such in the description, and if they see something else, I completely except that and find it interesting.
I've actually had many clashes in the community because I don't care about improvement and have a lax attitude on it. People don't like it, or don't believe me. But it's only when I DID adapt this method that I was happy with what I drew. Before I just relaxed and drew and didn't worry about technicalities, I hated everything I drew and wasn't happy at all.
People don't believe I can improve this way, especially since I always discourage critique, but I can pull out something I've done 4 years ago and compare it to something today and I actually have. That's all fine and dandy, but if I hadn't, I'd still be loving every minute and not caring otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:24 am (UTC)Well everyone improves at their own pace and in their own way and some people not at all. But if the reason you're an artist is to express yourself and you're happy just meandering along, doing whatever you feel like, then why post your work online where it can be judged by your peers? If you're so happy and pleasured just by creating the work then why do you feel the need to post it?
I have my "expressing myself" folder, I keep it at home, many of it's pictures are furious emotional contorted pieces, they're not art. They're emotional and expressionate but they're not art. Sometimes one becomes the basis for a piece of art. I enjoy creating art as well, but not everything I scribble down is art, a lot of it's fun and enjoyable to create but ultimately goes notwhere.
People have this sort of convoluted idea that art materials + person = art. Just because something is created doesn't make it art anymore than it makes the person who created it an artist. Artist comes from artisan after all, meaning a skilled craftsman.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:39 am (UTC)Why not post it? I make it very clear to my watchers why I draw, and never have a problem with people critiquing something when I haven't asked for it. The only time I've ever been judged, is by people saying that my way of doing things doesn't make me an artist. My art is never judged. I am, and truthfully, in those rare instances, it's more close-mindedness than anything.
I also give encouragement and support to new artists. I know artist who would have given up and stopped drawing altogether because of people telling them what they were doing wasn't art, and then they never would have gotten better or improve or tried new things or expressed themselves. They would have completely abandoned everything, and I think that's the worst kind of tragedy.
I believe if someone tries their best, put's their all into it, and really meant something, then it's art. I think of art much more broadly than "you have to be talented and draw this way or that way".
I don't put rules on art. It's just the way I am. Art for me is completely free of bias and limitations. And I enjoy meeting other people with similar feelings and sharing this view point through my art.
Skill is in the eye of the beholder. It's impossible to define skill when there are so many different styles and ways of doing things, the rules for one genre or style, completely won't fit for another, but that doesn't make it wrong. One person will see a piece of art and think the person is so talented, when that person will again look at someone "more skilled" than they and say the same thing.
It's like I told someone once, "For every person you wish to draw like, there is someone wishing to draw like you".
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:57 am (UTC)I believe in a balance, for me someone putting a pencil to a sheet of paper does not automatically make them an artist, it just makes them someone who has the *potential* to be an artist.
Unfortunately Life is not a "yay everyone gets a prize for effort" pinata. Art isn't either, effort doesn't make something art. I've slaved for four days on things and end up with something I canned because it didn't turn out to be art.
Does trying really hard make someone a scientist? a botanist? a pilot? Nope, they're all tasks with learned skills and artist is no different. Art can be enjoyable but so can any task, I could go take flying lessons and fly as a hobby, that doesn't mean I'd be able to pilot a jumbo jet or say I am a proper pilot.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:08 am (UTC)Now, if you're a business or career oriented artist, then fine and dandy. Critique away, try new things, stress and strive to improve every second you hold a pencil and be picky about what comes out "right" and what comes out "wrong". Those ARE things a career oriented artist has to worry about, as presentation is everything.
I also wanted to add, on the subjec of why I post. Why not? Why should only one "brand" of artist get to post in the community? I don't see any difference between an artist wanting to make a career out of it, and a hobby artist, not when you get down to the deep and dirty part of it. Both have just as much right to share their work as the other.
I'm well aware that life isn't sunshine and lollipops, but a lot of the time, the reason it isn't is because we chose for it not to be. Don't want life to be fun? It won't be. Don't want to be happy? You won't be. Just because life dictates one thing, doesn't mean you have to follow it. If life doesn't want to give prizes for effrot, *I* will. I've spent my life fighting and struggling for everything I have. I'm not going to sit back and "go with the flow" because it's the way something is "supposed to be". I don't accept what's "supposed" to be.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:22 am (UTC)I do both myself, but my reason for bettering myself is for no one else but myself. Sure it does make me mor 'marketable' but it's also something I REALLY want to do.
I draw what I want, and I draw what I need to work on.
Indeed There needs to be Balance!
Life is about Balance! *zen*
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:23 am (UTC)A hobby scientist still has to follow scientific rules, a hobby pilot still has to know flight procedures. Having Hobby in front of something doesn't make you a ruleless version of the professionals. One of my hobbies is wood craft, I don't do it professionally and I do it just as a bit of fun but that doesn't mean that sloppy joint work is fine, if I build a chair poorly, it'll fall apart when sat on, in which case it isn't a chair, it's a pile of scrap wood.
I never said you shouldn't post. My point was that if you already were getting all you needed from creating the work, then you don't necessarily need to post, if you do then there probably is a reason for it.
My point is life is made up of failures and successes, sometimes no matter how hard someone tries they'll flop anyway and there are no prizes for almost did it. If you subscribe to the idea that everything created equals art, then you stagnant art because why try? If everything is art then art has gone all the places it can go, there's no challenge to it anymore. By trying to declare any person who picks up a pencil is an artist and does artwork, then you're taking the journey away and giving everyone an instant prize, nobody appreciates anything they don't have to work for and those of us who do work for it, don't really appreciate watching suzibhack getting kudos for scrawling some "art". I'm a hobbyist myself and I actively resent being catergorised with the won't trys and can't trys. If somebody scrawling a stick figure is also an artist then what am I working at my artwork for? I mean, what's the point if mr stickfigure is instantly awarded the title I've worked my rear off to earn? A title that means SKILLED craftsperson.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:35 am (UTC)"Well, they aren't as good as me, so fuck them they lose".
Just because YOU got this "journey" your on with art, doesn't mean that everyone is. Obviously, that's YOUR goal in art, but that doesn't mean it's everyone's. It's not MY challenge, it's yours and people like you, but that doesn't mean that people like me are less of an artist than you, simply because what we're trying to achieve doesn't meet with your guidelines.
If you get that out of art, than by all means, continue doing it. But I'm not calling YOU any less of an artist just because I disagree with you, while you're sitting there saying that anyone who doesn't meet your expectations isn't an artist. No offence, but It makes you sound like you're up on some high horse of your own. If that's your viewpoint on art, that's fine. But you shouldn't declare someone is or isn't an artist just because it's the way YOU feel, or a group similar to YOU feel.
I'm not telling you to stop what works for you, but I don't feel as if you're open to anyone else having a different opinion, and yet being equal to you. I don't get what you do out of art, and I don't think I ever could and still consider myself the same person I am, but I'm not sitting here going "Oh, her method is like, fucked dude, and I don't appreciate that she get's kudo's for doing something with no feeling put into it!".
And no where did I say that every shit-n-scribble is art. Go back and reread. I said that if there is FEELING put into it, if the person TRIED THEIR BEST, and put TIME and EFFORT into the work, THEN it is art, no matter the skill level. There is a difference, if you care to take the time to see it.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 02:27 am (UTC)Not insecure, as I've said before, the word artist comes from artisan which means skilled craftsman, so basically everytime someone with little or no skill says they're an artist, they're saying they're a skilled craftsperson, basically they're essentially claiming something they have no right to by strict definition.
Time was people STUDIED before they started saying they were something, after all no matter how enthusiastic you are about first aid, you can't call yourself a doctor without passing your training. Time was artist was at least semi-respected profession, now I and other serious artists get far less respect because of all the "hobbyists" wittering on about how easy art is and how enjoyable it is, when they really don't have a clue. Of course it's easy for the dedicated hobbyists who don't want to improve, they can just keep drawing the same thing day after day, some of them think composition is something spread on the garden. Art's a lot easier when you don't have to think about it beyond "I'll draw such and such again".
I'm not talking about -my- expectations, I'm talking about the historic definition of artist. One that's been around for hundreds of years, one that's been badly usurped because people can't do one simple thing, it's not like learning skill is beyond anyone who -wants- to work at it. But that's the way of the world now, work takes too long, everyone wants instant kudos.
Our opinions are diametrically opposed which is why this discussion isn't working, you haven't attempted to understand my point of view really, you'd declare everyone who wants it an artist, I maintain that some work has to go into it for someone to be an artist. What we're coming down to here is hobbyist verses up and coming professional.
My problem is by calling both sides artists, you're putting hardworking professionals who've spent years perfecting their artwork so they can have a job they enjoy in the same league as suzibhack who thinks artwork is easy because she doesn't care about composition or anatomy. Do you think prima ballerinas would be happy to be considered in the same league as some 10 year old who tries to dance but doesn't have the training? That's the equivalent in my opinion. Try and think about it, imagine yourself in my place, getting constantly told I should be cheaper in charging because some other person who hasn't half my skill claims to be an artist and witters about how easy it is, of course it's easy for him/her, he/she can't see past his/her own inadeqacies, so he/she just cranks out one drawing after another, all pretty much of the same low calibre. That is the problem you get when skill isn't prized, that the top tier of people who've worked for skill actually suffer because of the tide of those who haven't worked start affecting people's perceptions of artists. If you can imagine that then you might understand why it's a sore spot with a lot of more skilled artists.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 02:37 am (UTC)If people are ragging on you for being expensive, that's THEIR problem for being a bunch of damned cheap skates, not people like me who are just trying to gain some equally and stop getting walked all over by people like you who think because you say so, that you work harder than people like me. I may work harder in a different way than you, but it doesn't mean I don't have goals of my own, and it doesn't mean I don't try in different ways and work my own ass off. Just because I'm not like YOU, doesn't mean I'm less of an artist. You shouldn't be blaming your short-comings on other people. If a LOT of people are getting after you for being expensive, perhaps it's time to sit back and look at yourself, instead of giving everyone else the evil eye. Maybe the problem isn't everyone else.
Now, I've had about enough. I'm going to bed. If you feel the need to have the last word, be my guest.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 03:06 am (UTC)Firstly, I'm not enormously popular, and as some of the art sites prove, popularity has little to do with skill in some cases. Once again you pull something out of my post that isn't in there.
Secondly, try going in a professional artists forum and spending some time reading some of the laughable offers from people who think that they can hire the professionals for the same price as the less skilled hobbyists, a LOT of us get it, not just me and it's largely because hobbyists who don't rely on their artwork to pay the bills are constantly telling people that art should be available to all. I mean sure, if you're a hobbyist and want to be generous, give away as much of your art as you like, but at least tell people that's just your decision so they don't hunt me down and get pissy at me because I won't do the same.
There's a big trend in the artistic job market right now, where hobbyists are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of with on spec work which is ruining the market. I'm not jaded or just sour grapish, there are serious problems in the art market being caused by clueless hobbyists (and some clueless professionals as well just to be fair). It's bad for the hobbyists and really bad for the professional artists.
And while you're at it, have you seen the damage an un-skilled un-professional hobbyist who thinks they're an artist can wreak? You think I like finding out art directors who would hire someone like me have been avoiding looking for new professional artists? And then discovering it's because some hobbyist who thinks their art is just fine because art is "expression" and the rest of us are just being "mean" bringing skill into it, has made a spectacle of themselves and meant that the art director who came looking for a professional artist leaves in disgust without looking at our work.
I used to be a hobbyist, but it just seems like within the last few years as I've moved on up in terms of skill there are more people who really don't have clue and they're doing so much damage that they may collapse the art market within a few decades, now tell me this? How many hobbyists pick up pencils because they're inspired by what a professional artist did? Now imagine there aren't any professionals working because the art market imploded. Do you see the picture yet or do I have to make it easier to understand? The art world cannot continue to be so "broad", otherwise it's going to over-saturate itself to death with mediocre art and artists. I'd like to have an artistic future in 30 years, not be told no-one wants me because I'm too high quality to be paid a pittance but the companies can get mediocre art for much cheaper. The backlash against the over-saturation of mediocre art has already started.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 05:54 pm (UTC)I'm sorry, but I think you're deeply confusing 'artist' with 'art'.
Art isn't exclusively for folks who have spent years in studying the works of masters, be they sculptors, painters, composers, architects... whatever. It isn't some gift from the heavens that's only bestowed upon the few dedicated purists who sacrificed and toiled to hone their craft to the peak of their ability.
Art is creative expression of thought, feeling, intensity, and emotion. Art in any form and at any talent level. A 5 year old can create art, and they often do... and refrigerators are crammed full with their 'postings' all across the world.
Is their art good? Well, not in any sort of technical merit, no, not usually, but art is more than just technical quality.
Art longs to be viewed by others. Creating for yourself is a great and wonderful thing, but believe it or not, some folks LIKE to share their artwork just for the sake of sharing it. Not charging a thing for it, not forcing someone to sit and analyze or critique it, just to convey something that they couldn't express as richly in words.
Now, folks claiming to be artists, well... that's your personal stance, and you're welcome to it, but I think you're really selling your perceptions short by being so offended by ametures and hobbyists who call themselves 'artists'. Its a self-labled title, and doesn't hold any real meaning in the world above and beyond what they say it is. Their art will speak far more volumes about their actual skill at being an artist than any description they could give themselves.
Personally, I think watching the evolution of quality, style and range of artwork that flows out of someone is one of the more fascinating and beautiful things to observe.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 06:14 pm (UTC)It's not so depressing from my stand point, it's what drives me to go higher and further because I always aim to do better because I believe that artists always challenge themselves.
No, art isn't a gift from the heavens but that still doesn't mean that every brainfart someone puts on paper is art. Art originally evolved so people could depict things, so they could tell each other stories through pictures, you can't tell me that telling a story through a picture doesn't require some sort of technical merit, after all if you paint a water buffalo that looks like a cat, is your audience going to understand it's supposed to be a water buffalo? Probably not.
I wasn't really irritated until I went professional and had to deal with people who couldn't tell hogshair from hogwash causing drama and generally being pains in the neck while claiming to be an "artist". I'm more sort of exasperated that as a word artist nowadays doesn't mean a respected professional like it should. Just because art can mean an emotional charged creative piece doesn't mean that's all it is capable of being.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 06:43 pm (UTC)Your second statement puzzles me, though... any viewer is going to see something different from their own unique perspective and mental process of disassembling and categorizing the art that they see. Who's to say they wouldn't see a cat anyway, even if the anatomy of a water buffalo was near perfectly duplicated?
If you remove all sense of imagination and personal interpretaion from your perception, than all you're doing is mechanically churning out a product. That's the point that I find most depressing, that the joy and spark of instantaneous creativity is removed. I don't think of that as art... I think of that as being a printing press.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 07:35 pm (UTC)Yes, but we all know a waterbuffalo when we see one. It's not like you can present the mona lisa to someone and they'll say they see a fish not a woman.
Just because something isn't imaginative or personally interpreted doesn't make it mechanical and boring, otherwise people wouldn't bother painting still lifes.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-28 09:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-28 09:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:11 am (UTC)If art to you is ONLY about soul and feeling then you're probably in the wrong discpline, supposed you were playing a musical instrument? Would it be okay if you just played whatever notes you felt like when showing other people your music? after all that's feeling isn't it? Smacking your hands on notes with no regard for musical structure doesn't make what you're producing music, it's the same with visual art, just because you're putting feeling into a work doesn't make it art.
Art is a balance, feeling and skill, one without the other is about as useful as a bicycle for a fish. It seems to be that when you get these un-balanced approaches that people start getting really protective about their art and starting witch-hunts everytime someone even draws something vaguely like their work.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:19 am (UTC)I'm not contesting that you have to have skill and balance in aspects of art; I'm disagreeing with your blanket statement that feeling is worthless and you can only improve if you take some stick-up-your-ass math-like approach to improvement. "shallow pc crap" and expression are an integral part of art, and to turn it into some brainless science misses the point, just like in music. You can be technically skilled, but it's lacking without the meaning behind it.
People get defensive over their art because their egos are blown out of proportion and they think they're greater than they are. It has nothing to do with methods of expression.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 12:32 am (UTC)Why does it need to be about feeling? Do you think the mona lisa was about feeling? probably not, chances are somebody paid Leonardo da Vinci to paint that piece. It's still a piece of art, a very beautiful piece of art, but it probably wasn't painted due to emotions.
What about the sistine chapel? Michealangelo was paid to paint that, do you think he sat there rambling about whether or not he was "feeling" it? No, he got up there an produced a masterpiece of skill which is widely recognised as art.
I didn't say feeling is worthless, I said when it gets to be all about their soooooooooul and shallow crap it's being approached wrongly. Meaning doesn't make a piece of art, you can have beautiful art without meaning, does something have to mean something to be art? Nope.
Actually a lot of the people who get most defensive are all like "oh noes this ripper tore out my heart and soul when he/she ripped me off" they're far too emotionally involved with their work. Yes, you expect people to be upset over geniune cases, I stress the genuine at that, but the witch-hunts are ufrequently sparked by some drama queen whittering on about how they're stealing an artist's creativity.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:07 am (UTC)Some say that the picture was very important to Leonardo, and possibly a personal piece. He always carried it with him. So I -do- think it had value
Also through the ages, artists have all used art, along with progressing, as an outlet to express themselves. Come to think of it, many artists, classic admired ones, very rarely stepped out of the bounds they perfered, often keeping to one subject, and/or one style(such as lighting or use of color), at least that -I- have seen.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:23 am (UTC)From Wikipedia:
"Vincent Van Gohh became resentful at how art was treated as a commodity, and he manifested this to the customers. "
He had even created that little "town" where artists like him, other's he looked up to, could go and live and paint. Only 1 showed up, but that's completely beside the point. lol
no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 01:45 am (UTC)Because an article that has his name spelled wrong is gospel truth? The fact is no-one knows how Vincent Van Gogh felt because none of us were there, that and the guy was more than a little nuts, he cut off his own ear for instance.
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:48 am (UTC)And for the record, that was MY typo. My deepest apologies for being imperfect and making a mistake.
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Date: 2006-09-29 02:29 am (UTC)Well if you posted the article then cite your resources for it. Unless you mean you made a mistake when you copied it over?
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:47 am (UTC)If the customer rejected it then he might have well just kept it around as a sample for other customers to view, or maybe not, no-one really knows.
That's more than likely to be because of the way artists were trained back then, most artists were trained by a master artist and the master artist did what sold for them, you can bet if your trained to do nothing but religious art then chances are you'll continue doing it because you're used to it and know it works.
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:19 am (UTC)But money is money, and if you work for a living through art, you end up doing some things you're not too keen about
(might I add that Michaelangelo was short tempered, and once accused Rapheal for stealing from him because Rapheal took a peek at the ceiling.. *sigh* sounds like issues of this nature date back as far as then.. He also can't draw women.. I also think the Sistine Chapel is overhyped >_> but DANG is it a lot of work)
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:12 am (UTC)Thank you. You've restored some faith in me. =)
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:10 am (UTC)in any case.
I use art for expression a lot, but personally I -want- to experiment, I -want- to better myself, because in the end, it also helps my portary the things I want to express.
I do art in general, simply because I have images in my head and want to put them on paper.
But.. you know.. are kinda really is expression. But I can see what you mean. Most this 'soul stealing' issues lies in mostly the personas/fersonas, and symbols not really in the art itself. Despite the fact that many of these things have been used in the same manner over the years. -That- is where the problem lies.
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Date: 2006-09-29 01:42 am (UTC)I think people get like that partially because the modern pc approach is that titles are given for trying hard, you know like how in some schools they're not allowed to fail pupils because it might affect them negatively. Artistry has a heck of a history behind it, and presently that rich history of skill is clashing with those who think they're entitled to be called artist without bothering with the skilled bit. People get very emotional over this, hobbiests who "just want to express themselves" don't like the fact that being an artist does involve an element of skill, and I'm finding more and more artists are getting annoyed with being besieged by people who think that just because they were emotional when they created something they're artists.
What about the recent fuss over pose jacking? They've really been laying into people for that lately.
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Date: 2006-09-29 03:11 am (UTC)And I just realised that sounds a little like I'm saying you're not an artist, when I do consider you an artist because you balance both sides.
Also I notice artist seem to grow out of the whole "he stole my character crap" when they grow as artists, eventually they learn that character theft isn't possible since characters are trademarked not copyrighted.
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Date: 2006-09-28 08:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-28 08:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-29 03:59 am (UTC)Nowadays, artists come in many flavors, from your standard drawing-on-paper artists, to digital artists, and everything inbetween.
However, before you can go tromping around and define what makes an artist, why not define art itself first?
I view art like this:
Art is taking your images, ideas, and emotions (or, the core of a certain feeling, environment, or both) from your head and transferring them to a media that allows another person to feel, see, and experience the same thing, or something similair.
Art causes emotion. It can cause bad emotion, good emotion, strong emotion, or subtle emotion... but at it's very core, it's about conveying feeling(s).
So, wouldn't an artist just be somebody who conveys feeling? Even as a profession, they're still putting feeling into their pieces. Sometimes that feeling is from the heart and soul, and othertimes it's from a precise competetive edge to be the best... but it's still feeling, no matter how you slice it.
Is it worth debating about endlessly and getting worked up over? No. Art, much like personality, differs from person to person. Everybody is entitled to their own personality of art, and while you don't have to agree with it, that doesn't give you the right to shove it into the ground, either.
Also much like personality, art is oft influenced by others around you, or even within you. Since it's all about feeling, you can draw inspiration from just about any source, and I don't believe that should be hindered at all.
Art should flow freely, just as we are all allowed to feel freely.
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Date: 2006-09-30 02:58 pm (UTC)most of all everyone should have 'don't be inspired by me' somewhere in their gally becouse that how you learn; by NOT looking at eichother and by NOT looking at ref *sarcasm*
hm I think you know my opnion I'm not gonne say more in public, I'v seen enough bullcrap like this, I dislike the internet becouse of this type of unprofecional and unethical behavior, it hurs the brain and its of no use.
gag of the day; I leave A_T and then I find your lovly rant 8) you take the words out of my head.
Please forgive me...
Date: 2006-10-05 02:38 pm (UTC)If you aren't too busy... a friend drew something for me, for a project of mine with an upcoming deadline... and then circumstances made it so that she couldn't complete her work. Could you... pretty please... umm... ink a picture for me? It's a rush job, and short notice, so I ~totally~ understand if you can't. I need to have this finished, printed, etc, by Saturday morning, so I really need it asap... like... Friday would probably be the latest... so... liek I said... TOTALLY understand if you can't. Please just let me know either way. ;-;
::loves on you SO HARD::
Re: Please forgive me...
Date: 2006-10-05 04:03 pm (UTC)Well today is my day off, so send me the info ASAP! If I can't get it done today, I won't be able to get it done at all really... (today is my day off!)