toft: spacemen holding hands (love_bravenewworld)
[personal profile] toft

I read Julad's fic Night-blooming Heartsease (HP, Snape/Neville, a companion to Resonant's fic Transfigurations) the other day for the first time, and it got me thinking about how important Harry/Snape fic was to me way back when, and how different fanon versions of characters and pairings look after some distance from them. Because the thing is, it's a lovely story and I cried, but objectively speaking, Snape is horrible and abusive to Neville through the whole story, never recognizes it, never apologizes for it, and Neville just... gets used to it and eventually rises above it and starts to see Snape as a human who's suffered, and they grow to respect each other. But Snape doesn't actually change, they just start to see each other differently. There's a truly harrowing bit midway through the story where Snape propositions Neville because he's miserable and he thinks Neville and he could comfort each other, and Neville is too terrified of him to say no. They make out for a bit, Snape notices Neville is unenthusiastic, asks him if he actually wants this, Neville says no, and Snape is absolutely furious with him for thinking he's a rapist and throws him out. So like, yay for wanting enthusiastic consent, but Snape doesn't ever acknowledge that there's a problematic power differential between them that emerges from him having been an abusive teacher with power over Neville that Neville still feels, even if they're no longer within the institution that gave Snape that power. The other thing I found troubling is that Neville's POV makes him seem really, really young, and that moment in the fic I found excruciating because Snape is propositioning someone who is still in the mindset of finding him a desexualized, terrifying schoolteacher, and Snape doesn't realize that Neville is in that mindset even though he's still treating Neville that way.

All this isn't to criticize the story - it's more just noticing things that were totally ubiquitous about the way Snape was portrayed in Snape/Harry stories and other Snape/the younger generation stories of that time. I remember sometimes noticing at the time and not liking the fan version of Snape that was rather like a fan version of Rodney McKay that came later where he's just horrible to everyone all the time and it's treated fondly by everyone in the story (ESPECIALLY in the SGA fics where Rodney's a professor and John's his TA, oh my god), while there was some stories that dug into his behaviour a bit more; I suspect now even they would not be enough for me, and/or I'd be much more squicked by the power dynamics than I was. But I feel very ambivalent about it.

I've encountered in fandom in more recent years a fairly blanket condemnation of Snape as being totally awful and abusive, which again, is partly because the conversation has moved forward and perception of the books has shifted, and partly because I think for sure there was a lot of romanticization of Snape - around Alan Rickman being wildly sexy, definitely. And I can't disagree with that. But I've never been more devastated by the death of a fictional character, which was partly because of the backstory JKR eventually gave him; I felt so powerfully for early Snape - so trapped, so bitter, so resentful, unable to move on from his adolescent humiliation because he has literally been trapped at the scene, trying to do the right thing in his own distorted way, so brave. Dumbledore's systematic refusal to see abuse on the individual level in the name of 'safety' kept Snape teaching in Hogwarts the same way it kept Harry with the Dursleys; Snape was like a miserable old cat who consistently scratches and bites people, whose owner keeps insisting that he's lovely, really, it's fine for the children to play with him. And then JKR gave him this ridiculous overromanticized attachment to Lily which made his fixation on Harry even more weirdly sexualized than it already was, and also coopted him into one of her creepy compulsory heterosexuality everyone-falls-in-love-once-when-they're-fourteen-forever narratives. I just wanted him to escape and have the chance to grow into a better person. In the HP books, nobody ever gets to escape their upbringing.

And I don't know now whether my increased discomfort with Snape pairings is because I'm older and a teacher now, or because generally my awareness of issues of consent and power has changed because the conversation has moved forwards, or I'm just not as caught up in my love for those characters anymore. Because the thing is, I still think that Harry/Snape was a great pairing for me because when I was reading it was between about Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix era, and a lot of resistive criticisms to JKR which seem obvious now weren't then, but Snape-centric fic was thinking about them.

Harry/Snape in particular, as I remember it, was this place where people were thinking critically about Dumbledore and his complicity in Harry's abusive childhood, about the invisibility of queerness in the books, about intergenerational trauma, and about being an outsider. Snape is trapped by Dumbledore and his own choices in an eternal adolescence, while Harry is thrown by Dumbledore into a premature adulthood, so that they are both awkwardly at odds with their own age group and with the wizarding world. It was such an angry pairing. I really, really identified with those versions of Harry and Snape, which in retrospect I suppose was partly because I also felt thrown into premature adulthood by my personal circumstances, where I was in the middle of a fairly classic eldest-child-in-a-divorce situation with an abruptly overinflated sense of responsibility for caring for my brothers. I don't identify with either side of that pairing anymore with anywhere near the same intensity now, but I feel like I'm still interested in the problems with the books that that pairing highlighted.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 06:23 pm (UTC)
anatsuno: Batman entangled with tentacles, possibly in a fight (batman & tentacles)
From: [personal profile] anatsuno
I have nothing intelligent to say but I really enjoyed this very thoughtful post about a pairing I also like but have various misgivings about <3

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 06:34 pm (UTC)
wychwood: Rodney thinks this idiocy should be illegal (SGA - Rodney illegal idiocy)
From: [personal profile] wychwood
This is really interesting! I find it intriguing looking at the things people like about pairings I don't "get", because it's such a different insight into canon. For me, I was never going to ship Snape with anyone because the thing I noticed about him, the key character trait for me, was the way he bullied his pupils. Like, the whole thing with Harry is super complicated and maybe arguably forgivable given his personal history, but the way he treats Neville is flat-out wrong and there's never an excuse for it. He is so consistently awful as a teacher that I could never look past it (even when he turned out to be Alan Rickman). But I find your version of him here interesting.

(I love Rodney, as you obviously know, but the part of him where he is legit a dick to people was never my favourite! I would hate to work with him. Even when you can see him desperately browbeating everyone out of insecurity because he doesn't know how to relate to people other than by trying to impress them all with how smart he is)

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 06:53 pm (UTC)
sasha_feather: Retro-style poster of skier on pluto.   (Default)
From: [personal profile] sasha_feather
+1 to this comment

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 07:22 pm (UTC)
longwhitecoats: (HP Advanced Potionmaking)
From: [personal profile] longwhitecoats
Thank you so much for articulating this. I find it very painful how fandom has latched onto Snape hate; I always identified with Harry when I read the books, and Snape/Harry was one of the first ships I loved with my whole heart when I found fanfiction. While I definitely resent and resist a lot of things about JKR's writing -- "compulsory heterosexuality everyone-falls-in-love-once-when-they're-fourteen-forever narratives" certainly being one of them -- I always loved Snape and I suspect I always will.

(There's another important criticism of Snape Hate to be made here about how JKR!Snape is 100% an antisemitic caricature, but I'd have to ask the friend who pointed it out to be the one to explain it.)

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 09:07 pm (UTC)
isagel: Lex and Clark of Smalllville, a black and white manip of them naked and embracing, with the text 'Isagel'. (Default)
From: [personal profile] isagel
The first time I read PoA, I overidentified something fierce with Snape, as someone who has been bullied and has that visceral rage because of it that has nowhere productive to go, really, but is white-hot and snarling and that you can’t let go of, and also as someone who is very lonely. Later, when I read HBP, I was struck by how the Sectumsempra spell is the perfect expression of that rage, a method of lashing out that naturally would spring from the mind of someone who felt it. I’ve got past most of that particular rage and loneliness by now, and as a result I am no longer as attached to Snape as I was, but certainly he was very important to me there for a bit. Among the HP ships, Snape/Harry is the only one I ever properly shipped. Idk, emotionally I think Snape (at least pre the maudlin Lily reveal in the last book) is something a damaged part of me could have been if I’d retreated into some very justified ugly feelings I had for a long time.

(I could never forgive Sirius Black for the bullying of Snape - I think there was something about how it’s described that was triggering for me, but I’ve never been able to put my finger on what - and so I could never get behind any pairings involving Sirius. I still think Sirius gets a free pass by the narrative on behaviour that in, say, Draco was treated as irredeemable sins.)
Edited Date: 2019-01-08 09:09 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 11:53 pm (UTC)
isagel: Lex and Clark of Smalllville, a black and white manip of them naked and embracing, with the text 'Isagel'. (Default)
From: [personal profile] isagel
Privilege is a really good way of thinking about Sirius, I hadn’t framedit like that before, but it makes all his most annoying traits make sense.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 09:52 pm (UTC)
chestnut_pod: A close-up photograph of my auburn hair in a French braid (Default)
From: [personal profile] chestnut_pod
Thanks for this thoughtful post! This was very interesting to read.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 10:54 pm (UTC)
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)
From: [personal profile] cathexys
This is a really brilliant post. I often look at stories (esp older stories, but clearly kylux fandom shows us that it's not just a function of a less consent-oriented time) and wonder what fantasy is playing out in that particular scenario. Like you, I am squicked much more easily by teacher/student (and even prof/TA) relationships, because it hits too close to home (though often it's also just left of correct and I tend to nitpick endlessly and stupidly, especially when people get jobs at their PhD granting institution just like that no searches...eh...sorry going OT here :). And yet there was something about collective Snape that overcame that for me. And it's not even that my initial encounter with Snape made me feel for him all that much (though I was actually teaching middle teens at that moment :). But I think the collectively shared version that we bounce back and forth, the affect we invest into a pairing is pretty powerful. Like, i'm faceblind and do not actually tend to be attracted to people and bodies because they don't really register for me. But the repetitive descriptions in fanfic coupled with images certainly create that attraction, i.e., I weirdly desire physicality vicariously. And that's even before we get into culturally constructed and shared and reenforced ideas of attractiveness. In a way the endless repetition of certain images and the reminder at the bottom that something had been shared 1000, 10,000, 100,000 times on Tumblr was a great reminder how we bounce ideas/images/emotions/responses back and forth.

None of which gets me anywhere with Snape except that he felt weirdly like a child stuck in a grown up (and often was written that way in fanfic as well, I think). He was so disempowered on so many levels that his abuse often felt more like defense from HIS point of view (I love your cat comparison). None of which helps Neville, but then the other problem with HP to me has always been that fairy tale exaggeration always existed side by side with realism and it's always been difficult to separate out when which one applies...

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 11:45 pm (UTC)
kass: close-up on Severus Snape (snape-eye)
From: [personal profile] kass
I have no wisdom to offer here but this is really thinky meta and I thank you for it.

I'm re-experiencing HP now as my kid watches / reads -- he's 2/3 of the way through book 7 and has seen all 8 movies -- and I'm amazed by how different it all seems to me now that the canon is closed, or now that we've all grown up more, or now that our sense of things has matured. I'm disappointed in Rowling in a variety of ways, and yet, it's also a joy to see my kid falling in love with this 'verse.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-08 11:58 pm (UTC)
runpunkrun: Pride flag based on Gilbert Baker's 1978 rainbow flag with hot pink, red, orange, yellow, sage, turquoise, blue, and purple stripes. (Default)
From: [personal profile] runpunkrun
I never hung out in this area of HP, so it's interesting to hear your viewpoint, from then and now. Thanks for sharing.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 01:38 am (UTC)
amara1783: watercolour of a contemplative lady (Default)
From: [personal profile] amara1783
Thanks for sharing this - interesting read, and I found myself nodding along to a lot of it - especially the parts about later books and about how the conversation has moved forward. It was one of my favourite ships - I particularly liked stories that explored the relationship between them after Voldemort's defeat, when they would be able to interact without the constrictions of their canon era roles, with Harry having his own adult life (not simply 18+ but knowing who he is in himself), such as Quid Pro Quo by Aucta Sinistra.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 02:19 am (UTC)
luthien: (SGA: Think)
From: [personal profile] luthien
Yeah, it was an interesting time, particularly in the Snape slash corner of fandom. The Snape het corner tended to be a bit more interested in romance novel archetypes and a bit less interested in exploring the characters.

I got into Snape/Harry despite the age difference, since I was in my 30s, and angsty teenagers were really not something I wanted to read about. It was the characterization of Snape in the fic that drew me in and kept me there. I’ve always been interested in power dynamics in relationships, and what made Snape/Harry interesting to me was the different ways in which Harry was shown to have power over Snape. Even when Harry didn’t really realize this, Snape certainly did.

One of the most interesting things in Snape fandom at that time was all the speculation about where the story - the story overall and Snape’s storyline in particular - was going. And also, speculation on things that had happened in his past. JKR drew on a bunch of traditions in her writing, including the English boarding school story as well as fantasy, but when the book series was a WIP the aspect of it that really fascinated me was that it was basically a mystery story. Now that it’s complete, most of those mystery elements don’t count for much in the way they did. And the reveals in the final book often weren’t as interesting as the conclusions that fandom had drawn in fic years earlier. I remember being incredibly disappointed that Snape’s primary motivation turned out to be based on an entitled ‘friendzone’ view of his relationship with Lily.

But he remained a complicated character. I remember a few months ago a post going around tumblr asking which view of Snape was correct: an abusive bastard who victimized the children in his charge or a misunderstood hero working behind the scenes to save the day. I replied that he was both. He was an utter bastard who was abusive when he held a position of power, but he was also very brave and did end up giving his life and dying for something beyond just himself.

Someone on tumblr I know and like, replied to me saying she was sorry, but Snape was just awful and that’s all there was to it. It sort of surprised me that there was no room for anything but a one dimensional reading of this character, but it looks like that’s where HP fandom is at the moment.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-10 02:52 am (UTC)
luthien: (SGA: Hmm)
From: [personal profile] luthien
I re-read book 7 a few years ago, to see if my initial impressions of it still held. They did (the pacing sags dreadfully in the middle) but it also became very clear to me that the story was wanting to head towards Harry/Hermione. There's that whole saggy section where they're all alone and depending on each other and getting very close. Or, you know, she could have let Harry and Ron get together, rather than inventing a sister who pretty much existed solely so that Harry could have the closest hetero option to marrying Ron. But, of course, JKR had her plans. Hermione had to end up with Ron - because total opposites attract, presumably - and Harry had to end up with Ginny, so that he could be part of the Weasley family. I really wish she'd just let herself follow the storyline that unfolded instead of imposing her preconceived plans, but of course she doesn't ever do that.

Tboy and I used to know each other irl very well before I moved down here, so I have the rl her on my facebook. I see her posts there from time to time. Her most recent fannish blog is [personal profile] rose_gialle, but it hasn't been updated in a few years. Afaik, she's not active in fandom any more.
Edited Date: 2019-01-10 02:54 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 03:17 am (UTC)
espresso_addict: Pen & ink Snape with text 'severus snape' (snape)
From: [personal profile] espresso_addict
Thanks for this insightful meta. My HP fannishness might as well be called Snape fannishness, and I've read him in every conceivable pairing in consequence -- my favourite is Snape/Lupin, but I like him with Minerva, Aberforth, Filch & many others, and I had a soft spot for teenage Snape/Lily long before it was canonised, but I like some intra/post-War Snape/Harry-generation characters a great deal. I'd count NBH (which I recall loving but haven't read for years) among those, with Neville growing into an adult during the story. (In my head, Snape would apologise in his own oblique way at the end, except for the death thing.) I think what I liked in this & some Snape/Harry works was that Snape made the other character grow up -- his bullying behaviour softened into a tough-only-the-outside love that genuinely allowed the partner to successfully stand up to Voldemort or to negotiate a hostile post-War world. ('Troubling' sums up my feelings about the entire universe, really. Rowling puts these characters in these literally horrific situations, and then backs away from ever acknowledging that, realistically, they're all going to die horrifically unless they get out of the honourable Griffendorks mould.)

The one Snape pairing I can't forgive is Snape/Albus. (Or Albus/Harry for the same reason.)

I can't analyse why this anti-Semitic caricature is perhaps the fictional person that's closest to my heart -- self-identification, no doubt (it isn't anything to do with the casting because I don't think of Rickman's version at all) -- but I agree child trapped in adult body (I'd go with toddler, myself).

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 07:04 pm (UTC)
espresso_addict: Pen & ink Snape with text 'severus snape' (snape)
From: [personal profile] espresso_addict
Delphi was responsible for converting me (and according to, oh, me at Fanlore the rest of the world) to Snape/Aberforth, though I think it was Predatrix who got me reading Snape/Filch. She had a wonderfully poignant Snape/Lockhart as well, as I recall. The much-missed HP Beholder was excellent on unpopular Snape pairings with canonical adults.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 10:00 pm (UTC)
espresso_addict: Pen & ink Snape with text 'severus snape' (snape)
From: [personal profile] espresso_addict
Aberforth Dumbledore, the goat-loving, inn-keeeping brother of Albus. Goat Song's the well-known one, but I also think her A Gramarye of Folk Magic is lovely.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 05:06 am (UTC)
chagrined: Marvel comics: zombie!Spider-Man, holding playing cards, saying "Brains?" (brains?)
From: [personal profile] chagrined
I enjoyed reading this meta! I was never a snarry shipper, tho I read a decent amount of fic for them circa 2010 or so, I think most on recs from eruthros haha. but my approach to the pairing was very different from yours, and it's interesting seeing how different ppl approached characters & the series.

also this makes me want to pick up my reread again & maybe finally post my dumb drarry rec post and/or meta of my own 😅

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 04:02 pm (UTC)
chagrined: Marvel comics: zombie!Spider-Man, holding playing cards, saying "Brains?" (brains?)
From: [personal profile] chagrined
it's nothing deep haha, just like, "hm sure, teacher/student power differential + antagonism + creepily projecting lily on2 harry, sounds like a decent combination" lol. since I specifically kink ON those kinds of things, heh. so i wasn't interested when I was younger, then as I got older & became more self-aware of my interest in those kinks, I still wasn't in2 it as a ship really but I could see the potential 4 doing things I enjoyed in fic. (also this basically seems 2 be the opposite of most of your commenters LOL) 😂

...then I realized maybe u meant my drarry meta instead LOL. if so, oops. anyway, the meta I have been thinking about is more various ways harry's characterization setup doesn't fully work 4 me heh. tho I guess some of that does lead a little 2 why I like draco 😅

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 07:43 am (UTC)
jamethiel: A ginger root beside a saucer of shredded ginger (Ginger)
From: [personal profile] jamethiel
In the HP books, nobody ever gets to escape their upbringing.

This is SO INTERESTING. Maybe if they do get to "escape" they're acting out against it? See Harry going for The Girl With The Family. And Hermione going for The Jock.

Re: the characterisation of Snape, it's... complicated. See, my first fandom/pairing after X-Files was Snape/Hermione and it's only as I got older and went "...UM?!" that I saw the consent issues involve (and now I'm back reading it with the KNOWLEDGE that it's baddirtywrong and I would be disgusted in RL. Oh well.)

Night-Blooming Heartsease is one of my favourite fics and it's partially because of the awfulness of the situation you mentioned. It's funny--like another commenter said, I can forgive Snape his treatment of Harry, but not of Neville. But I'll still read pairings, etc.

I do miss nuance in the analysis of characters. We know he was awful and abusive, but we also know he was a spy and was brave. We don't know how many lives he saved--when do people go "Well, he had awful characteristics and good characteristics." When does one outweigh the other?

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 10:26 am (UTC)
jack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jack
Oh gosh. Yes, I love stories that delve into the characters so well.

I think my perception has mostly shifted by age/situation: when I was younger I empathised with the children more than the adults, and student/teacher fic was clearly in the "I can see why this is a bad thing in the real world but I don't have a problem about it in fantasy" category. Now I know children in a 10-20 age bracket as children, I'm a lot more squicked to read something like that myself, because I can't gloss over how disastrous the teacher has to be to get into a situation like that. I think my perception of what's ok in other situations has shifted too, but I think that was the main thing that changed.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-09 07:26 pm (UTC)
yunitsa: Sexby and Angelica from The Devil's Whore; 17th c. woman in dark cloak with man in hat behind her (Default)
From: [personal profile] yunitsa
Thank you for articulating this, it speaks to a lot of thoughts I've been having. A friend of mine got into HP fic more recently so I've been trying to rec her some old favourites, including "Nightblooming Heartease", but realising that a lot of things squick me now that I'm an educator rather than a 15-year-old myself (though, given how much the pendulum has swung the other way, that doesn't mean I think people were bad and wrong for writing them!). And I can't read academic AUs AT ALL, either they're distractingly unrealistic or distractingly realistic...

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-13 01:01 am (UTC)
stultiloquentia: Campbells condensed primordial soup (Default)
From: [personal profile] stultiloquentia
It was never my ship, really, but god, the fic it inspired was so damned good, I had to read it anyway. This is such an interesting reflection on it. Yes, it was uncomfortable, in Doylist and Watsonian ways, and yes, 2019's fannish norms around power and consent and trauma sometimes seem light years away, but the way authors of that pairing took up their tools and cracked open and carved out space for anger was really extraordinary and valuable, I think.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-23 07:30 pm (UTC)
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)
From: [personal profile] sapote
I'm finding it really interesting across fandoms to see what kind of (~~potentially problematic) idfic tropes still work on me at this stage in my life, which still fall flat, and which make me feel like - hrm. Like, I can see the architecture of the trope, and admire it as very good architecture, but I don't live there anymore.

(no subject)

Date: 2019-01-29 05:09 pm (UTC)
anitac588: (Severus Snape)
From: [personal profile] anitac588
Thank you for this post.
Thanks to recent DW revival, I read immediately, and I had, still have, so many thoughts, that I cannot properly articulate. All those above me did it so much better than I ever could have. :)

My first ship was actually Severitus, bc of the terrible abuse that Harry had to endure (as much as I like Michael Gambon's portrayal of Albus Dumbledore, there will always be strong resentment towards him, how could they allow this, how could they not hex the Dursleys for what they were doing to Harry) and Snape - well, he was vile, but he was also capable, strong character, and one could sense there is ability to love, passionately, generously, buried somewhere deep inside of Snape.

Then, because that's just how I am, Snarry came into play very soon. HBP book, yeah. But no teacher - student fic. That is just a big NO, the same reasons as yours. I also love MyWitch's art, who creates Snape as a very, very sexual being. Though I fully support portraying Snape as any kind of sexual, from a- on, *G*, I love him with Mme Rosmerta, Hermione, Mcgonagall... it's a pure delight, her art.

Anyways. Lovely, interesting post. <3

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