(no subject)
"snowlantern, I was able to read about five sentences of that before I had to stop because it was so fucking upsetting and offensive because what you are saying is the exact same thing rape victims hear from people blaming them for their own rape."
I don't deserve to be called a victim-blamer. Please be specific about what I've said wrong so we can have a rational discussion about that.
"Please do not ever send that to anyone else you get in a debate with over rape."
I don't intend to. Like I said, I was very nervous about posting this in the first place, just for the few people in the PBW group.
"Especially the part about Cas not acting enough like he was raped."
My point was this: the alleged victim should at least have a say in whether what happened to them was rape or not. When it comes to Cas, a fictional character on a TV show, all clues we have access to indicate that he does not feel and has not at any point in time felt violated.
"Because I can guarantee you that if a handful of people read it, at least one person among them is gonna be a rape victim who ‘didn’t act enough like a rape victim’ afterwards."
I am one myself and I didn't either, so you don't have to school me about that.
"You know, Emma once got an anon who mentioned how they found themselves in a similar situation to Cas, and they called what happened to them rape. Would you tell them to their face that they weren’t? Of course not. But do you think that person isn’t seeing all these people talking about what happened to Cas wasn’t rape? That’s the shit I’m talking about, that’s the shit I don’t think we needs be a part of."
I agree that it's very very problematic and people might find it hurtful. I have every intention of being very watchful of what gets published and putting up all kinds of trigger warnings and disclaimers. I still don't want to issue a blanket ban on every possibility for discussion, though. If we are not allowed to talk about what is or isn't rape, nothing will ever change and we will be stuck in our rape culture. There has to be room for debate.
"I do not think you realize how problematic the things you were saying are, and since I am not really in the best headspace right now address your post point by point, I invite you to look at the “rape tw/tw rape” tag on my blog, they should suffice."
I feel very much attacked and vilified right now and not in the best headspace myself, so I respectfully decline for now. Maybe another time. You do seem to have thought about this more than I have, and I'm not saying this sarcastically (see below).
"Although since you say you ‘think it’s likely’ April was raped, you should know then by default Cas was raped. Cas did not consent to raping Human!April, he didn’t know Human!April was even there. It’s like, say Jane asks John to sleep with her. John agrees. Jane says “Here, put on this blindfold, and I’ll put on this gag, and then I want you to bone me.” but after John puts on the blindfold, Jane pulls a bound and gagged Emily out of the closet, puts her in front of John, and John penetrates her thinking she’s a willing Jane, but she’s an unwilling Emily. That is exactly what happened here (or at least, as best can be translated into real world scenarios). And that’s rape. For Emily, but also for John."
I agree. If April was raped, then so was Cas. I hadn't thought of it that way (probably at least in part because, like I said, I've adopted the headcanon that real!April was no longer in her body, so I didn't think the ramifications all the way through if she was in fact still there). You made me realize that, where I hadn't seen it before. You genuinely educated me, and I appreciate that. I WANT to be educated and informed about these things. It's not like I want to be some kind of rape apologist, here. I'm not your enemy, you know, I'm on your side. The fact that we were able to have this discussion is the direct reason why you were able to make me better educated. Couldn't have happened if the discussion had been forbidden to start with.
"But I just have to ask, just because you can twist and manipulate a situation to look like Not Rape, often by making several assumptions, the question is, should you? Why? What’s the purpose? What good is that gonna do? What is that going to accomplish other than enabling rape culture in media to continue unchallenged, and trigger rape victims?"
Well, I don't feel like I'm twisting and manipulating, I was stating my honest opinions. And the purpose is to have a climate where it's okay to HAVE opinions and talk about them. Frankly I feel like you proved my point that people have reason to be afraid of trying to convey what they're thinking.
"I’m not saying to shut down discussion."
But that is what you are saying. And it is what you are doing, as well.
"We should be talking about it."
But by "we", apparently you only mean those who agree with your view 100 percent?
"But just because we talk about it doesn’t mean we validate every bullshit opinion about it."
Of course not, and I never said I wanted to do that either.
"What constitutes consent is NOT up for debate, and one of the many fucked-up things about this country is that people think it is."
Precisely for that reason, we need to talk about it. People like you need to be able to inform the rest of us. Preferably without making us feel like shit, that would be nice.
"Emma, I’m sending you a message right now."
That sounds vaguely menacing, are actions being taken against me?
I don't deserve to be called a victim-blamer. Please be specific about what I've said wrong so we can have a rational discussion about that.
"Please do not ever send that to anyone else you get in a debate with over rape."
I don't intend to. Like I said, I was very nervous about posting this in the first place, just for the few people in the PBW group.
"Especially the part about Cas not acting enough like he was raped."
My point was this: the alleged victim should at least have a say in whether what happened to them was rape or not. When it comes to Cas, a fictional character on a TV show, all clues we have access to indicate that he does not feel and has not at any point in time felt violated.
"Because I can guarantee you that if a handful of people read it, at least one person among them is gonna be a rape victim who ‘didn’t act enough like a rape victim’ afterwards."
I am one myself and I didn't either, so you don't have to school me about that.
"You know, Emma once got an anon who mentioned how they found themselves in a similar situation to Cas, and they called what happened to them rape. Would you tell them to their face that they weren’t? Of course not. But do you think that person isn’t seeing all these people talking about what happened to Cas wasn’t rape? That’s the shit I’m talking about, that’s the shit I don’t think we needs be a part of."
I agree that it's very very problematic and people might find it hurtful. I have every intention of being very watchful of what gets published and putting up all kinds of trigger warnings and disclaimers. I still don't want to issue a blanket ban on every possibility for discussion, though. If we are not allowed to talk about what is or isn't rape, nothing will ever change and we will be stuck in our rape culture. There has to be room for debate.
"I do not think you realize how problematic the things you were saying are, and since I am not really in the best headspace right now address your post point by point, I invite you to look at the “rape tw/tw rape” tag on my blog, they should suffice."
I feel very much attacked and vilified right now and not in the best headspace myself, so I respectfully decline for now. Maybe another time. You do seem to have thought about this more than I have, and I'm not saying this sarcastically (see below).
"Although since you say you ‘think it’s likely’ April was raped, you should know then by default Cas was raped. Cas did not consent to raping Human!April, he didn’t know Human!April was even there. It’s like, say Jane asks John to sleep with her. John agrees. Jane says “Here, put on this blindfold, and I’ll put on this gag, and then I want you to bone me.” but after John puts on the blindfold, Jane pulls a bound and gagged Emily out of the closet, puts her in front of John, and John penetrates her thinking she’s a willing Jane, but she’s an unwilling Emily. That is exactly what happened here (or at least, as best can be translated into real world scenarios). And that’s rape. For Emily, but also for John."
I agree. If April was raped, then so was Cas. I hadn't thought of it that way (probably at least in part because, like I said, I've adopted the headcanon that real!April was no longer in her body, so I didn't think the ramifications all the way through if she was in fact still there). You made me realize that, where I hadn't seen it before. You genuinely educated me, and I appreciate that. I WANT to be educated and informed about these things. It's not like I want to be some kind of rape apologist, here. I'm not your enemy, you know, I'm on your side. The fact that we were able to have this discussion is the direct reason why you were able to make me better educated. Couldn't have happened if the discussion had been forbidden to start with.
"But I just have to ask, just because you can twist and manipulate a situation to look like Not Rape, often by making several assumptions, the question is, should you? Why? What’s the purpose? What good is that gonna do? What is that going to accomplish other than enabling rape culture in media to continue unchallenged, and trigger rape victims?"
Well, I don't feel like I'm twisting and manipulating, I was stating my honest opinions. And the purpose is to have a climate where it's okay to HAVE opinions and talk about them. Frankly I feel like you proved my point that people have reason to be afraid of trying to convey what they're thinking.
"I’m not saying to shut down discussion."
But that is what you are saying. And it is what you are doing, as well.
"We should be talking about it."
But by "we", apparently you only mean those who agree with your view 100 percent?
"But just because we talk about it doesn’t mean we validate every bullshit opinion about it."
Of course not, and I never said I wanted to do that either.
"What constitutes consent is NOT up for debate, and one of the many fucked-up things about this country is that people think it is."
Precisely for that reason, we need to talk about it. People like you need to be able to inform the rest of us. Preferably without making us feel like shit, that would be nice.
"Emma, I’m sending you a message right now."
That sounds vaguely menacing, are actions being taken against me?
satisfied
awake
nostalgic
blah