Talk:Yasuke
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Q1: Why is Yasuke described as a samurai, and not a retainer?
A1: A request for comment (Talk:Yasuke/Archive 3#RfC: Should the view that Yasuke was a samurai be added to the article) found, based on the reliable sources that exist on the topic, a clear consensus that Yasuke should be represented in the article as a samurai. Wikipedia describes things as they are described in reliable sources (see WP:NPOV). Any change to this consensus would likely require significant new sources to be presented. Q2: Why can't I use my own expertise or reading of the primary sources?
A2: Per WP:V, etc, content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it.See also WP:OR, WP:NPOV for more information. |
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Lack of a surname needs to be addressed
edithttps://japan-genealogy.com/blog/p/history-japanese-surnames/
https://mai-ko.com/travel/japanese-history/samurai/
All traditional samurai, whether born or made, had surnames. They were a massive intentional difference between Samurai and commoners. Yasuke has no record of a surname. This must be addressed, as if he was samurai he should have a surname. Presently, this is creating a very stark issue within this article that directly violates Japanese history and politics during the Edo period: Yasuke is being called a samurai, but has no listed surname. Either Yasuke had a surname, there's a proveable reason he didn't have a surname, or he was given a rank that was not samurai and thus was not granted a surname. Either way, this must be addressed, as it starkly contradicts how samurai existed in the Edo period. ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- Adding to this: other samurai not having surnames is not a valid reason. There's records on WHY they didn't have surnames. Not on Yasuke.
- Provide documentation on why Yasuke didn't have a surname. ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:48, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- Yet another thing is: there is a claim that foreign samurai did not receive surnames until 1860. In 1860, the edo period was ending and the samurai were gone. It was very soon after that WHEN ALL japanese citizens were granted surnames. ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:51, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- it is significantly more likely that while he was Otogishu, he was not samurai. Most, but NOT ALL, Otohishu were samurai. The short period of time he was in Japan, the role he played in the court, his past as a bodyguard before getting to Japan, and his lack of a surname all favor this heavily. https://samuraihistoryculture.substack.com/p/samurai-ranks-otogishu ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:59, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- I don't understand your logic here, if you acknowledge most Otogishu were in fact samurai wouldn't you need to prove that Yasuke was a tacit exception?
- I do not think your line of reasoning along him not having a surname qualifies, nor do I think you have given a reasonable explanation for why one would or could not assume that Yasuke like other samurai simply did not have a recorded surname
- I think if you provided the records that explained why certain samurai didn't have surnames it would be easier for individuals to engage in your primary premise, no? ~2026-38942-03 (talk) 08:16, 10 July 2026 (UTC)
- it is significantly more likely that while he was Otogishu, he was not samurai. Most, but NOT ALL, Otohishu were samurai. The short period of time he was in Japan, the role he played in the court, his past as a bodyguard before getting to Japan, and his lack of a surname all favor this heavily. https://samuraihistoryculture.substack.com/p/samurai-ranks-otogishu ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:59, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- Yet another thing is: there is a claim that foreign samurai did not receive surnames until 1860. In 1860, the edo period was ending and the samurai were gone. It was very soon after that WHEN ALL japanese citizens were granted surnames. ~2026-35074-37 (talk) 17:51, 15 June 2026 (UTC)
- What was the surname of Itowaka, who carried Nobunaga's katana at the cavalcade of 1581? Given this prominent position, he would have surely been a samurai. I'll tell you, if he had one, it was never recorded in such a way that survived to modern times. The same is true of Yasuke, if he had a surname, it didn't survive to modern times. Neither Yayōsu (耶楊子) nor Miura Anjin (三浦按針) had surnames, and there is no doubt they were samurai, and considered fairly high-ranking ones, especially given their foreign-born, non-Asian background. Your attempt to hand-wave away this fact doesn't make it any less true. DragonBrickLayer (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2026 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2026
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The article currently presents Yasuke's status as a samurai as an established fact. This should be revised and changed to retainer to reflect that his status is genuinely disputed among historians, given how thin the primary source record is. Historian Thomas Lockley (author of African Samurai) has argued Yasuke held samurai status, citing the stipend, residence, and short sword Oda Nobunaga granted him. Japanese historian Yu Hirayama has made a similar argument on the same grounds. However, Lockley's work has drawn substantial academic criticism for blending speculation with sourced fact without clearly distinguishing the two — historian Nick Kapur and others have noted this weakens Lockley's credibility as a source. Spanish historian Jonathan López-Vera, author of A History of the Samurai, takes a more cautious position, describing Yasuke as closer to a retainer or bodyguard to Nobunaga rather than using the "samurai" label outright, while also noting that many of Nobunaga's other vassals with similarly modest documentation are uncontroversially called samurai. Given how few contemporary sources discuss Yasuke's status directly, I'd suggest the article state that Yasuke served Oda Nobunaga as a retainer who received a stipend and other honors, and that whether this constituted "samurai" status in the formal sense is disputed among historians — rather than presenting one interpretation as settled. ~2026-39201-48 (talk) 06:58, 12 July 2026 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please detail the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 09:25, 12 July 2026 (UTC)