Talk:Flag of Iran

Historical Flags Sections Accuracy

There is no verifiability that this specific Lion and Sun design was ever used on any historical flag.

The only thing it has been found on historically is a 1971 ceremonial plate.

We should make this clear. LoneShadow42 (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

Yes, it was not used prior to 1979, but since 2012 it has become the most popular design of the flag among Iranians. If you look at protest pictures, you see it is the most common one, and the 2nd most popular being the other Wikipedia design. The onus should be on the design that people are familiar with.

I will go ahead and revert the removal of the flag attachment in the lead because it clearly stated "modern design" and made no claim to being a pre-1979 design. Alternatively the caption could start with "2012 modern design" for more precision; make that change if you think that's better.

Same with the historical flags table section; I will just say at the top that they are historical reconstructions. ConflictFan (talk) 14:49, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't remove the lead, that was another user. This is just purely about the historical flag section. LoneShadow42 (talk) 18:49, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

Yes 👍 ConflictFan (talk) 20:46, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

"Due weight"

@ConflictFan: Buddy, look, I get it—you seem to have a rather anti–Islamic Republic, Pahlavist-leaning perspective, but that's not really the issue here.

Every "Flag of X" article on Wikipedia is about the national flag of the country in question, not every flag that has historically been associated with the nation or its people. By the logic of "both are Iranian flags," one could just as easily argue that both the Nazi flag and the current flag of Germany are German flags, or that both the Confederate flag and the flag of the United States are American flags, and therefore all deserve placement in the lead section of their respective flag articles.

That is obviously not how these articles are structured. The lead is reserved for the flag that is the subject of the article itself. Historical or alternative flags may well be relevant elsewhere in the article, but their existence does not justify featuring them in the lead. In my view, bringing up the Lion and Sun flag in the lead of the article about the current national flag of Iran is similarly irrelevant.

Billcipher123 (talk) 17:32, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

@ConflictFan: Also, I noticed that you bring up Elon Musk's X to justify the Lion and Sun flag's inclusion in the article. I have to say, that's about as sloppy as it is hilarious =))) like lmao what?? Social medias—especially those of a private individual, regardless of how prominent—are not a serious basis for determining the content of a Wikipedia article. Billcipher123 (talk) 17:41, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

Edit war/revert discussion

@MazurTutejszy and @ConflictFan, please stop reverting each other and engage in a discussion on this talk page instead. If you cannot come to a mutual consensus, you can seek the input of other users on this talk page, or ask for a Wikipedia:Third opinion if you need to. Slomo666 (talk) 14:09, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Alright, thank you.

To me, the situation is fairly clear. This Wikipedia article is about the flag of Iran, and the only official design that there exists and is widely used is the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Just as there is only one official and widely used flag of the Russian Federation, or of the Arab Republic of Syria, or of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or any other country which has a flag with a politically-contentious past.

In any other article, such official and widely-used designs are clearly named as what they are: "Flag of Russia", "Syrian flag", "Flag of China", etc.

(The only exception to this which i can find is the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan; however, it's government was only founded less than 5 years ago, having a predecessor government which lasted for nearly 20, and said government is not internationally recognized, not being admitted to the UN and not having a foreign reach to most nations of the world. A very different situation indeed.)

Thus, why should images pertaining to the flag of Iran receive the title of "Flag of Islamic Republic"; or even, "Islamic flag"?

It's clear there is no contending government, and no other official flag. While the flag of the lion and the sun exists, it is clearly subservient in relation to the status, and should not affect what the official flag is named.

I would also lightly understand such a naming pertaining to political situations, such as Khamenei and Pahlavi in their own situations, however it is clear the other user does not see it that way and wishes to apply a different naming in non-political contexts, including sports athletes waving the flag of their own country.

Thus, i believe that specifications as to the government or official naming of the flag are largely useless, and, given the interests of the other user, largely biased. MazurTutejszy (talk) 14:44, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

I want to wait until ConflictFan responds, but I can give my personal view: I agree it is wrong to say "Islamic flag"; this is based on nothing. As for the rest: if the article is only about Iran, then "Iran flag" as a caption does not add much either. In line with that, you might as well say "flag in abyaneh" instead (for the first image in the gallery). As I understand it, it makes sense to say "Islamic Republic" (flag) to distinguish from other flags of Iran discussed in the same article. To use an analog: if there were an article about the flag of the United States, and in its gallery there was a flag following the alleged Betsy Ross design, then you could refer to this image as "Betsy Ross flag flown in [insert place]", whereas a flag following the current US flag specifications in the same gallery could be "present day flag flown/shown in [insert place]".

P.S.: I would ask that you refrain from Personal attacks, and don't cast aspersions about the "interests" of another user.

Happy editing,

--Slomo666 (talk) 15:01, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

I support the example you cited, as is the case in this article with contemporarily non-official flags, however i don't see the point in specifying one that is official

And i do not seek to make any personal attacks, without any confusion. However, as to interests, given the user runs a website which names the lion and sun design as a "one" and "national flag", there is simply little way to go without acknowledging this .. MazurTutejszy (talk) 15:12, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello all @Slomo666 @MazurTutejszy @Billcipher123

Sorry I could not respond sooner as I was busy with exams.

The Lion and Sun flag cannot be compared to other historical flags. It's a flag that is currently and actively used by millions of Iranians, however much the regime tries to kill people for waving it. It is a core fact of contemporary Iranian flag history, and it is not a fringe banner used by only a few.

Also, the article already contains this paragraph in the lead:

Many Iranian opposition groups opposed to the Islamic government use either the Lion and Sun flag or the green-white-red tricolour without additional emblems. Neither variant is officially recognised by the government, with the Lion and Sun flag strictly banned from public use.

Per MOS:IMAGES we need "important illustrative aid to understanding the subject," therefore we add the relevant images for the Lion and Sun flag. WP:LEAD also explains why mention of the opposition flag should be mentioned because of due weight.

This is also the same compromise we reached on the Emblem of Iran article. Nobody argued that the current regime's emblem should be removed, but we agreed that the Lion and Sun is important enough today to be illustrated alongside it.

Likewise, I have never tried to unduly hide the flag of the Islamic regime on this page. In fact, I even reverted an edit on this page from someone removing the regime flag: The time for that will come when the regime is toppled, but what is always covered is the significance today, so the current regime symbols should still be shown. (I am aware of WP:CRYSTALBALL)

As for the gallery captions, because both flags are shown, labelling one flag as the 'definitive' flag of Iran understates the other. That itself is taking a political position and goes against the approach taken at the top of page. In the lead it's explicitly described as the "flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran". Being precise with the name of the regime flag is not a political act; trying to understate the flag that Iranians use however is.

If calling the Islamic Republic flag the Islamic Republic flag is not acceptable, another option would simply be captions such as "Flag in Abyaneh". However, that creates accessibility issues for visually impaired readers and is less informative for everyone else. I really do not understand why you others take issue with using the official name of the government because of precedent; it poses no one any harm in doing so, and it is the option that leaves the least number of people unhappy and aligns the closest with the policy of WP:NPOV.

To reiterate, no one is denying that the ruling government is the Islamic Republic regime. Because of that, its symbols take priority in the lead. However, that does not mean that their flag is the only one that should be shown, and given the present significance of the Lion and Sun flag, we should not hide the latter.

Furthermore, just because I am an Iranian republican does not mean that my opinion is worth more or less than yours as non-Iranians on Wikipedia; we are all working together here to make this website a better place for readers to learn.

I await and appreciate your further input.

Kind regards, ConflictFan (talk) 21:31, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

ConflictFan: The issue I raised in the previous discussion is not about Iranian politics. It is a wikipedia article structural issue. Please read my argument carefully and address the points I have actually made before replying. Billcipher123 (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello @Billcipher123,

My previous response was not super well structured; I was responding to everyone.

In the lead section, there is already a paragraph discussing the Lion and Sun flag. The justification for having the media attachment was to visually support it. That same structure has already been used on the Emblem of Iran page, where the focus of the lead is on the regime symbol but the Lion and Sun is still mentioned. From WP:LEAD: "the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents" -- the introduction is the regime flag and the remaining important content covered in the article is the Lion and Sun flag.

As I mentioned in my previous message, the Lion and Sun flag is not a typical historical flag. It is one that is used by millions and increasingly more as time goes on; completely unalike the Nazi and Confederate flags who are only flown by fringe groups or historical reenactments. The Confederate flag does not represent the American nation for any considerable share of them, but the Lion and Sun flag definitely does so for Iran. Just because most countries don't have alternative flags doesn't mean we should hide that important fact about Iran. If Belarus' opposition was as numerous and supported worldwide as the Iranian one is, then I would likewise argue for the white-red-white flag to be shown under the Lukashenko regime banner in the lead.

The article explicitly states at the top: "This article is about the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the wider history of Iranian flags. [...]". It is not just an article about the current regime's flag, and the lead should reflect that, as already stated. It's also not uncommon to have parts of other pages embedded into each other if the subjects are close, which in this case both the Flag of Iran and Lion and Sun flag pages are.

When it comes to Twitter using our flag for the Iran emoji, that is just one of several reasons that could be used to support this (see the rest of what I wrote for other reasons). Of course X/Twitter itself is not the basis for the entire argument for keeping the flag in the lead, but I can only type in so many characters in edit summaries -- that's why it's better to discuss things here.

When it comes to your message below, we are free to speak our minds on these talk pages. They are again not the main argument for all this.

^^ I also forgot to add onto the idea of "current/present day flag" -- in this context it wouldn't work well either because we have modern day pictures of the Lion and Sun flag in contemporary use, unlike normal historical flags.

Cordially, ConflictFan (talk) 07:36, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Stop using circular reasoning "yeah, uh, at this passage the article writes this, so we need to include the Lion and Sun flag", texts on Wikipedia cannot be considered authoritative because anyone, including you, can edit it.

"Fringe group" is ultimately a matter of perspective. Even today, a significant number of people in the United States continue to display Confederate and Nazi flags.

As for the "and the wider history of Iranian flags", ok, so does it have anything to do with the issue of political opposition which seems to be so dear to you? Billcipher123 (talk) 15:35, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello my friend, thank you for your response.

The content of the article is determined by how relevant in the real world each part is. Millions of Iranians wave this flag, and that is an objective fact (In just 3 cities alone, 950k Iranians showed up to wave the flag on 14 Feb: 2026 Iranian diaspora protests#Global day of action).

To my knowledge, the confederate and nazi sympathisers don't have anything comparable. Those people often hide their sympathies because they are rightfully afraid to be ostracised from society because of their fringe beliefs, but this could not be further from the truth for Iranians who show up in great numbers like this. But sure, this specifically is still up to one's perspective.

Also, history did not stop in 1979. Since then there has been consistent opposition to the Islamic regime among Iranians, and this fact should not overlooked. Hiding the flag image gives readers who don't already know much about the subject a distorted perspective, making them think that Iran is a monolith and that the Islamic Republic represents all of the country. Including the flag on the other hand poses no harm, it is in precedent with other articles and is in respect of the guidelines and MOS of Wikipedia. All it does is give new readers a more balanced perspective and makes it easier for them to read more and learn about the subject in its totality.

I unfortunately do not think we can both arrive upon a mutual understanding alone, so I would like to hear @Slomo666's input on this whenever they're back.

Regards, ConflictFan (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

ConflictFan: I like how you keep circling back to your ideological drivel about "million of Iranians wave the Lion and Sun flag", like who cares dude, the Flag of Iran is the current flag of the nation of Iran, which is the Islamic Republic flag, in accordance with other articles' structure. It is honestly frustrating arguing with politically-charged people on wiki like you. Billcipher123 (talk) 02:39, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

I appreciate your respectful engagement and addressing of my points. Regardless, it is better to wait for the input of more editors. For anyone hitherto uninvolved, the dispute is about including a media attachment of the Lion and Sun flag in the lead under the info box and next to the paragraph explaining it. Best, ConflictFan (talk) 11:26, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Opposition flags are not typically shown in the leads of articles for nations' flags, they are saved for other sections further down. The Lion and Sun flag is duly noted and linked in the lead so that the page referring to it can quickly be accessed and one can see it in its respective infobox.

I do not condone the language used toward you by other editors, but they are right that it does not belong at the top here, however many millions of people might use it. The lead only needs to and only should show the official flag. This was how it was on the Flag of Syria page, too: despite the three-star flag being used with great frequency, the two-star flag was the only one represented in the lead prior to the fall of the regime. ~ oklopfer (💬) 12:42, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your input ConflictFan (talk) 13:41, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Furthermore, I would encourage you to refrain from making arguments about the legitimacy of the flags or how "murderous" the Islamic Republic government is, as they are not relevant to the issue at hand. Billcipher123 (talk) 04:28, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello,

Your response is understandable.

It is good that we have come to a consensus over the issue of the naming of the flags - as both of us agree that a neutral point of view is critical and making decisions due to precedent is a rational choice. I hope, thus, that reverting will end and neutral terminology can be implemented.

PS. I will also state that i do not seek the erasure of the lion and sun symbols within the article. However, it is also important to note that this is an article for the flag of Iran. And currently, there is only one such official symbol. For example, despite popular opposition use, the white-blue-white flag is seldom used within the flag of Russia article. The KMT flag is also used in historical meanings within the "Flag of China" article, due to the fact that it is currently not an official flag over the government of Beijing. It's article lies in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Taiwan, as does the flag of the Russian opposition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-blue-white_flag, and the Iranian opposition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_and_Sun_flag. Thus, i hope that the article does not turn further into one that tries to paint two pictures and two flags - but sticks towards focusing on present usage, with other flags receiving historical and miscellaneous mention.

Thank you for understanding, despite the previously different opinions we have had, and i hope the edit reverting can end here and now.

Kind regards :) MazurTutejszy (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello dear @MazurTutejszy, apologies for the delayed response.

I made an edit to the gallery section splitting all the images into two sub-sections for the Islamic Republic flag and the Lion and Sun flag respectively.

Because the pictures are now separate and their respective sub-sections are already labelled, there is no more need to explicitly name the flag shown, so the result is much more succinct and natural than before.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this; I think this is a much better compromise.

Regards, ConflictFan (talk) 17:01, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

I've noticed in your edit, you removed all mentions of the flag of the Islamic Republic being the flag of Iran and replaced it with just "flag" and kept the references of the Lion and Sun flag being the flag of Iran. That feels like an issue of NPOV in my opinion. I added mentions of the flag of the Islamic Republic as the flag of Iran back in and thought to mention it here in case it was relevant to the discussion. WhoIsConfused ( talk ) 18:10, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Hello @Whoisconfused

I am confused myself, maybe you didn't read through the whole discussion? The gallery already has a title caption, therefore there is no need for "Iran" to be added when it's already being specified above. This is not an issue of POV because nothing has been removed.

I will revert it to the previous revision because I believe your concern is already covered by the gallery header. Regards, ConflictFan (talk) 19:08, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

I think I see my mistake, I saw discussion that neither one would be called the definitive flag in the gallery and saw that the Lion and Sun flag still had a caption where it was referred to as "Iranian flags" and assumed that meant the consensus was to call both of them Iranian flags. If that's the case, I assume the caption calling the Lion and Sun flag Iranian flags was kept because it wouldn't make sense to just call it "flags" since there are also flags of the USA next to it in the photo. I agree that it is more succinct and natural to not name the specific flag it is each time, but I think maybe just for that one caption, it could be referred to as the Lion and Sun flag, so that it doesn't seem like the Lion and Sun flag is being given a bias since that is the only caption in the gallery referring to either flag as an Iranian one currently. I won't change it yet. WhoIsConfused ( talk ) 19:52, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. I think for that caption it could be renamed to "Iran's contemporary flag" ConflictFan (talk) 20:47, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

@ everyone: I am happy to see we/you managed to reach a consensus while I was away, and that I could be of help by offering the compromise that I did (which I believe everyone has consented to). Thanks everyone, happy editing, Slomo666 (talk) 22:54, 3 July 2026 (UTC)

I am fine with it :) MazurTutejszy (talk) 00:07, 28 June 2026 (UTC)