delphi: A head and shoulders shot of Izzy Hands from Our Flag Means Death, gazing seriously into the camera, with a skull on a ship's rail behind him. (Izzy Hands)
[personal profile] delphi
I've been saving up my thoughts, telling myself that I'll eventually do some episode-by-episode posts about season 2 of Our Flag Means Death when I'm ready for a re-watch. But my notes on the finale are already a novella in and of themselves, so they're probably best dropped as they arise, and the video I recced earlier today has me particularly thinking about the speech Izzy makes in 2x08.


Izzy:You don't know the first thing about piracy, do you? It's not about glory. It's not about getting what you want. It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. It's about finding the family to kill for when yours are long dead. It's about letting go of ego for something larger: the crew.

Ricky: I destroyed the Republic of Pirates, and that makes me the ultimate pirate.

Izzy:You're not a pirate, lad. You're a spoiled, entitled bunch of twats dressed in puffy blue nighties. Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire because...we're good. And you are a rancid, syphilitic cunt.


According to Con O'Neill, there was significant editing of this speech that re-contextualized it in some way. I'm hugely interested in how and why so, but regardless, the oddness of "because we're good" aside, it's a strong one. It tells us something about piracy. It tells us even more about Izzy. It hints about his past losses. It confirms or clarifies his attachment to Blackbeard and also what it meant to shoot him to save the crew. It gives him a win that stands in contrast to his previous losses, showing how his acceptance by the crew lets something he previously failed at (insulting people without embarrassing himself) reach its full potential.

The thing is...that speech should have been Stede's.

Not as-is, obviously, but I can't imagine there wasn't some earlier draft where the man on the opposite side of the table telling Ricky he had the wrong idea about piracy was Stede. Because Ricky is clearly a foil for Stede. He's the actual version of "God's perfect little rich boy" who ran away to be a pirate, full of overconfidence and hung up on whimsical calling cards. Only, unlike Stede, he can't deal with failure (and isn't intriguing enough to quickly catch the interest of a powerful ally like Blackbeard). Not only does he run home after his first failure and try to pretend it never happened, but he makes that failure everyone else's problem. Stede says: "What if I could make piracy better?" Ricky says: "If I can't be a pirate, then no one can."

Stede is the one who inspired Ricky to be a pirate. Stede is the one who did what Ricky couldn't. Stede is the one who wisely left the scene of their shared crime in time to avoid Ricky's maiming fate and had his luck continue through a timely rescue by Zheng. Stede is the one who Ricky should want to gloat at while they share a drink like gentlemen. Izzy and Ricky just met today.

It would have been a great payoff for all the ways Stede grew into being a pirate captain, to have him be the one to tell Ricky: You and I are not the same. You don't understand what piracy is really about. After all, Stede should now know that it's not about ego, fame, power, or bending others to your will. He should know, after everything he's gone through, that it's really about freedom and community, taking risks and growing from failure, finding yourself, finding what makes you happy.

Except...we then hit the problem of Stede not really ending the season in that place. The problem is two-fold. Or two-and-a-half-fold.

1. The writers know that Stede isn't going to stay a pirate, even if we the audience don't at this point. So, even though a not-insignificant part of season 2 is devoted to Stede wanting his crew to respect him and stay with him, and then to a penultimate episode where his success at traditional piracy causes problems for him, his feelings about piracy fall by the wayside at the climax because the episode is going to end with him giving it up.

2. The above isn't an insurmountable problem, but the season never really explicitly commits to Stede's conflict between being with Ed and being a good captain to his crew. It starts off promisingly on that front, with Stede rescuing the Feral Five even when he thought they had killed Ed, and reluctantly supporting the crew's decision to banish Ed at first. Episode 5 then seems like it's going to escalate this to the point of being addressed: Stede overrides the crew's wishes in bringing Ed back, shushes them when they try to talk about their trauma or ask questions, and then spends the episode learning from Izzy that he needs to listen to and to some extent indulge the crew when they're afraid of something he loves (the cursed suit / Ed), even when he doesn't believe it will harm them.

But that never hits a breaking point. The crew don't push on the topic of Ed the way they do on the suit. Jim, Oluwande and Archie are ready to leave Stede, but they never mention what Ed did to Jim and Archie as a factor in this. Ed leaves Stede because he can't deal with being a pirate right now, but Stede doesn't try to go after him or consider giving up piracy. It's fine that he ultimately chooses Ed, it's even in line with both previous moments where he's talked about being happy just to be with Ed and with the existing theme of "We only have one life." But we never see him weighing that decision, and the narrative doesn't force him to even when all the pieces of a conflict are in place. It just sort of happens, like the characters know it's as predetermined as the writers do.

We never really get an answer to what Stede would do if Ed hurt someone on the crew again. We don't necessarily have to believe that Ed would, but I do think we should have ended the season with at least some sense of what action Stede would take if he could conceive of possibilities beyond what the writers had already decided. What would he do if the crew had issued an ultimatum of either Ed leaving or all of them? We know Stede doesn't choose the crew when they believe Ed is a threat, but would he choose them if he believed Ed was a threat? And would choosing them mean saying goodbye to Ed, or would it mean giving up his captaincy to leave with Ed and know the crew was safe?

The show never makes him decide or seemingly even think about it after their reunion beyond the joke of the cat bell. Instead, it tries to have its cake and eat it too by positioning everyone as one happy but separated family at the end.

It was unexpectedly wonderful that we learned what Izzy's answer was to this conflict. A man who loved Ed and had built his life around him for decades dragged himself up one-legged from his deathbed to disarm him when he was trying to commit a murder-suicide with the crew. But Stede is our main character, the man who wanted to reinvent being a pirate captain, who called the crew his new family and read them stories at night, and it really feels like part of his journey this season should have been facing that hard choice between loyalty to someone you love and a duty to the crew who depends on you.

2½. Stede's lack of making a choice and therefore lack of commitment to his crew is what stops him from fully inhabiting the role of captain before giving it up, and that's a shame. We could have seen him resolve that unaddressed conflict in a speech to Ricky, but it would have required changes to the script past that as well. If we're meant to see Stede as having come into his own as captain, we'd expect him to take point in the subsequent escape attempt. He's in the best position to pass himself off as an officer, and it was established in 2x05 that he has every reason to believe he'd be safe doing so because his body just sort of takes over when he's in danger—twice stopping an enemy before Izzy could finish drawing his sword on his behalf. (And in retrospect, how messed up is it to have Stede pretty smugly describe his own invulnerability to a man who will shortly after die from the sort of injury Stede has twice walked off?)

We can't have Stede giving a speech about the crew being the most important thing and then hanging back while a subordinate with a notable prosthesis who can't run puts himself in the line of fire, so Stede doesn't give the speech. Izzy does, and in doing so, the closest thing we have to a commanding officer who expresses a commitment to the crew dies. Meanwhile, Zheng loses her entire fleet and her and Auntie's closing lesson is about being okay with failure.

I don't think it's wrong per se to have the captains end up where they do. But in light of the speech, and in a season that introduced the idea that mutiny is a capital crime that other captains will kill even a victimized crew for, it's just kind of odd to end with all three captains being at peace with not having lived up to the commitment of the position while the one person who grew into expressing and embodying that ideal died. I don't think this was at all an intended message, but rather a problem the show had with the concept of importance. It feels like some writers saw Ed and Stede's rank and protagonist status as one and the same. As though Ed and Stede being the most important people on the ship is what made them the most important characters, and so we're meant to care about how being in power makes them feel as protagonists (stressed by the responsibility, fulfilled or not by their crew's regard, bored or stimulated, successful or not) but not how them being in power makes the less 'important' characters feel. Some writers obviously did care very much about the question of power for those who don't have it. But at some point it seems to have been decided that a statement like "[People in power]...just get away with [hurting the rest of us], and we move on" would be resolved by the people in power throwing the crew a pizza party.

So the speech had to be Izzy's instead of Stede's, as much as I wish otherwise. Now I'm going to talk more briefly (I promise) about why it should have been Ed's.

This isn't to say that I think Ed should have made the speech to Ricky. But Con O'Neill has more than once referred to the speech as Izzy's eulogy. Izzy has to deliver his own eulogy. That's depressing in and of itself, but when combined with the fact that the goodbye between him and Ed is also his own monologue, it means that Ed never ends up having a voice in the end.

Imagine seeing how much Ed has grown through this experience by how he eulogizes Izzy. He could have had the opportunity to talk about what he regretted about his past and what he wanted to do differently in the future. We could have seen how funerals bring families together, as David Jenkins put it, through Ed and the crew connecting through that speech. Not Ed looking for an admiring audience like he did with them before, or parroting a corporate apology that Stede fed him, but being honest and vulnerable with them on the subject of a loss they were sharing.

Is Ed just saying "Well, that's that then" and calling the man he tortured, maimed and tried to kill "a fucking nightmare" the last words Izzy would have wanted? Well...yeah, probably. But that's not who Ed wants to be. Letting him put some self-reflection into words after losing someone he spent so much of his old life with—and with him, losing the chance to ever fully set things right—could have shown us a changed Ed.

Instead, it's Izzy who comes into his own and Izzy who dies. And while we have the sense that the crew will be fine because of how we saw them come together for Izzy, it's jarring to be told there's been reconciliation and yet feel like they're probably better off without Ed and Stede on the ship right now. As much as I love Izzy getting such a good scene, it feels like that time really should have gone to the leads.

Why not let Izzy bestow one of his nods of approval to Stede after Stede delivers that verbal slam to Ricky, then let Izzy insist on taking point so that Stede stays with Ed or watches the crew's backs?

Why not let us find out about Izzy's lost family and desire to belong through Ed delivering his eulogy, revealing that he did know him better than anyone else and can now answer the question of what Izzy was to him?

(Or, you know, why not let Izzy live and have Stede's arc pay off as a captain who's earned the loyalty of his first enemy and Ed's arc pay off by him willingly letting go of his unhealthy patterns with Izzy?)

This is one of those areas of the finale script where I really wish I was privy to all the options discussed, because I'm really interested in what else might have been on the table and what swayed things in this direction.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-13 08:32 am (UTC)
author_by_night: (From Pexels)
From: [personal profile] author_by_night
You're right. It should have been Stede's speech.

I was also surprised by the lack of follow through re: Ricky being a pretty obvious foil to Stede.

And yes to a vulnerable Ed. We needed that. Ibalso agree that we should have known what Stede would do if Ed went bad again.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-16 11:53 am (UTC)
author_by_night: (From Pexels)
From: [personal profile] author_by_night
I just wish that had either been resolved before we were given what was supposed to be happy ending for Ed/Stede or at least acknowledged as a conflict.

Agreed. Especially as Ed knows how much the crew means to Stede. Their first real interaction is Stede trying to bolt out of bed going "my crew!" and Ed assuring him that they were all okay.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-13 02:20 pm (UTC)
kitarella_imagines: Profile photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] kitarella_imagines
That is a good and thorough analysis of that speech 😊

I wanted to comment on these parts:

Izzy:...It's not about glory. It's not about getting what you want. It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. It's about finding the family to kill for when yours are long dead. It's about letting go of ego for something larger: the crew.

...Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire because...we're good.


You: According to Con O'Neill, there was significant editing of this speech that re-contextualized it in some way.

What I thought was, when Izzy says all that, I presumed it had an LGBTQ+ connection and that is why Izzy/Con was given that speech. Especially It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. That seems to me exactly what people who ‘don’t belong’ are told—that they are nothing and they don't belong, so they make their own crew.

And the ...Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire... was a reference to people trying to kill off LGBTQ+ people for centuries, even in the 21st century with certain politicians trying to do that.

I'm sorry if I've completely misunderstood and misinterpreted that, it was just what popped into my head when Izzy said it.

Your points about Stede being a better choice to say the whole speech make a lot of sense though, because he and Ricky are definitely two sides of the same coin.

I think the budget being cut so drastically changed season 2 from what David Jenkins originally wanted. So if they'd had the full budget, we could have seen Stede giving that speech...

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-14 10:26 am (UTC)
kitarella_imagines: Profile photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] kitarella_imagines
It just made sense to me that Con/Izzy was given that speech, bearing in mind that Con recently said he was part of the LGBTQ+ family.

Yes, I'd love to know what could have happened if they'd been allowed 10 or 12 episodes. I like the idea of Izzy/Frenchie, I'd like to have seen how that developed, seeing as they were holding hands in at least one scene and didn't Frenchie have his head on Izzy's lap in one scene?

I have a bad feeling that we won't get a season 3 but fingers crossed we do.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-14 06:15 am (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
Huh, I never really thought about it like that, but you're right, a tense conversation/confrontation between Ricky and Stede would have made more sense there. And it would have shown all that Stede has learned and internalized about being a pirate.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-14 02:21 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
You make a lot of good points here. I did feel at the end that the season came off as confused about how all the character arcs and themes were supposed to land. Stede and Ed abandoning piracy at the end actually came out of left field for me (I thought they would recommit to it in part so they could go avenge Izzy) but if that was the plot then I see the logic of Izzy getting that speech... yet it also reinforces the problem of Izzy getting all this great development and then immediately getting killed off. It does end up seeming like the characters are acting as they must for the writers' plans to function, rather than organically based on what they would think and know in-universe.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-15 03:45 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
I'm disappointed as a fan, but I'm also interested as a writer.

Yes, same - I also react to writing that doesn't work for me by trying to figure out what went wrong and what I can learn from it. I suppose realizing that a serialized story has outgrown your original plans (or that you may have to cut the story short for external reasons) is a special case of "kill your darlings". At that point you no longer have the option of going back and changing the earlier parts to better support your original intentions, so you have to be honest with yourself about whether what you had in mind can still work, or if you're really just forcing it and it's not going to make sense to anyone but you.

As an aside, it occurs to me that hitting the "end of piracy" theme hard is kind of the same mistake that was made with Escape from Monkey Island. In a setting that's presented mostly as a lighthearted fantasy, I'm not sure it can work to shoehorn in that dose of harsh reality, to portray the world the audience is invested in as Doomed, Actually. It's just depressing and tonally off. (And in the case of OFMD, where piracy is closely associated with queerness, it gets worse the more you think about it.)

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-16 12:19 pm (UTC)
author_by_night: (From Pexels)
From: [personal profile] author_by_night
I absolutely love your analysis. I don't have anything to add, but I think you're onto something.

I didn't realize the show was originally conceived as being darker and closer to the historical roots.


(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-17 04:52 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
As a casual viewer who had no idea what was going on behind the scenes, I would NOT have guessed from S1 that the showrunner was straight or that there was ever any doubt about Stede/Ed being endgame. The themes of queer community and piracy-as-queerness seemed to me fully intentional and planned from the beginning, which I guess is why the turns away from those things in S2 came completely out of the blue for me. I didn't perceive them as an attempt to pull back towards an original vision of the story that had been lost, because I never imagined there had ever been any disagreement about what that vision was supposed to be. It just felt like the writers had bewilderingly decided to undermine their own established story and themes for no apparent reason.

how they approach supporting characters more broadly (accustomed to that being where queerness has more often been allowed to happen and seeing that part of yourself in those non-starring roles) compared to the s2 [...] singular focus on the protagonists, with the supporting characters simply being there as foils, echoes, and heralds rather than characters with their own agency and inner lives.

YEAH. This is a big part of what bugged me about S2, even leaving aside the finale. S1 felt like an ensemble made up of people with their own stories and goals (even if a few were more central because of the story's chosen focus) and S2 largely lost that.

it was Jim, Oluwande, and Archie who were originally supposed to be absent because they were having a threesome all day

This makes total sense to me and I was actively baffled that it didn't happen. Oluwande being pulled out of the (seemingly) blossoming triad in favor of the Oluwande/Zheng ship made so little sense to me that I actually questioned whether I had somehow missed an episode or skipped past a scene that explained it.

queerness as relationship status versus queerness as community and an aspect of identity that exists outside of being in a sexual or romantic relationship

Yes, exactly. The centrality of queer community and identity is what made S1 feel like it was made by and for queer people. S2 actually does end up feeling like... this is a straight person's idea of what queerness means. Which is not at all what I was expecting coming out of S1.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-20 09:24 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
There's a Vanity Fair interview where the interviewer in a totally natural way that I'm sure wasn't part of a briefing from Max at all talks about how much she appreciated that storyline as a "female heterosexual viewer" and how it must have been part of reaching a broader audience.

Right. Because, as we in fandom know, straight women are never, ever drawn to m/m romance. That's not a thing that would make your show popular among that demographic at all. Sorry, I can only roll my eyes so hard.

It's interesting, because lately I've been thinking about what makes some canon ships work for me and others not (across all fandoms, not just OFMD), and how rare it is that I like canon het ships. What I dislike is definitely not the heterosexuality, but just how forced so many het ships feel to me. And I believe that's often because they genuinely are forced, either because the writers feel that every narrative needs a romance or that characters have to get paired up, or they feel pressured by fan expectations, or the pressure is coming from TPTB - in all these cases, it is very likely that the result is awkward and easily recognized as something imposed from the outside rather than something emerging organically from the characters.

It makes sense to me what you say about so much of S1 coming from a process of discovery, because that's exactly the way it plays. It feels organic because it is organic. Oluwande/Sheng does not have that quality at all to me. It just feels like "and now these characters will pine for each other because We, The Writers say so." (I did think Jackie/Swede was cute, though.)

The thing that boggles me about this stuff is that, like, you always get diversity-haters complaining that queer representation in media feels forced or only exists to serve an agenda. But so much heterosexual romance in media feels crowbarred in, and sometimes literally is part of a "straight agenda" where people believe you can't have a successful show/movie/whatever without it, and who cares if it's good or original or interesting, the important thing is just that it's there. And maybe it's the very mainstreamness of it that makes it hard for writers to make it interesting - all the standard romance beats are there and can be retrod endlessly without giving it any thought, and people just accept it because, well... he was a guy, she was a girl, can I make it any more obvious? This kind of thinking is not the way to exercise your creativity.

And I think that's the attitude behind a lot of what didn't end up working for me in s2, mostly on the axis of sexuality but also in terms of disability, gender, race and class in several spots. Not the matter of not wanting to make a specialty show altogether, but the matter of believing that you can make a mainstream show featuring marginalized people without sometimes making binary choices about whether a scene or message is swinging for the marginalized seats or the mainstream ones - and that if you're not even aware you're making that choice, you're always going to choose the mainstream seats in the end.

Well said, and agreed.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-22 04:43 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
no one shows their work because there's the presumption that the audience will be on the same page as the creator

Yes, this is it exactly! And same, I often find myself very interested in dynamics between male and female characters who aren't canonically shipped. (Or before they're canonically shipped and suddenly turn into completely different and much more boring people... *cough*Mulder/Scully.)

I was also not sold on Pete/Lucius as a married couple, and in fact wondered if we were heading for a complication in which it turns out that Lucius is rushing into this in part because of the trauma he's been through and being desperate for stability. (Not that I was oppposed to the ship in itself, just the progression of it seemed... fast.) But that, of course, didn't happen.

But unlike Ed and Stede's whirlwind romance - which was initially set up to demonstrate that each had something huge missing in their lives that the other could unexpectedly help fill, and was then also explicitly called out as whim-driven - this one moves just as fast and unwisely but is positioned as a good thing that happened just because a man and a woman hit it off off-screen and then apparently wanted to change their whole lives to keep dating.

Yeah. I guess that's the disconnect - again, the presumption that whatever the consequences, it's okay because they're doing it For (Hetero) Love. It particularly rubbed me the wrong way to have Jim and Archie playing matchmaker for Zheng and Olu, because... I dunno, it was like we suddenly veered from a queer-centered narrative to relegating queer people to the role of supporting an (apparently) much more important m/f couple. I guess they felt like they had to have that so it would be clear that Jim and Archie weren't pissed off at Olu's choices, but like I said before, this just ended up feeling like they were making the characters do and say and think what was convenient for the writers, not what would actually be realistic in-universe.

You know, I have a nonfiction book about pirates that I am pretty sure discussed Zheng Yi Sao, but it's been a long time since I read it and I didn't remember her real history. Knowing that history definitely doesn't help!
Edited (brain, grammar) Date: 2023-12-22 04:58 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-23 08:52 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
It would have helped a lot to keep the poly element in, because then it would have at least had Jim and Archie excited over an "and" rather than the "else" of backgrounding their own new relationship for an f/m couple that we're being told is more important but not shown.

That would have been so good!! I would have loved to see that played as poly compersion (which... might be what the actors were actually thinking?? boy, this gets more confusing the more I learn about it) but I suppose for that you'd also have to rearrange the whole plot. Not that I'd have been opposed.

I agree that it seemed like a missed opportunity to spend so little time on Jim's character, and that Anne Bonny and Mary Read were criminally underused. AUs to the rescue, I suppose. :)

I should find a good book on Zheng Yi Sao. The book I know I read before was more of a general overview of interesting pirates, and I remember thinking it was kind of all over the place and could have used better focus.

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-28 12:03 am (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
So basically what I'm hearing is we needed the version of S2 that was written by Vico Ortiz!

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-18 07:37 pm (UTC)
dracothelizard: Top Gear Dog wagging her tail and being cute. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dracothelizard
Fucking executive meddling messing up S2 with the lack of follow-through to ANYTHING. Why set up Ricky as a foil to Stede if you're not doing more with Ricky vs Stede in the end? And yeah, it would've been good to have Stede talk about what piracy means to him now that he's no longer in his Pirate Fantasy and is experiencing his Pirate Reality.

"a season that introduced the idea that mutiny is a capital crime that other captains will kill even a victimized crew for" Which is still kinda ??? although I have no idea if that was a historical fact, or if it was meant to be a thing Zheng does as part of her 'everyone will join me or die' thing where she specifically didn't want people with a history of mutineering as part of her crew?

(no subject)

Date: 2023-12-20 02:30 pm (UTC)
dracothelizard: Top Gear Dog wagging her tail and being cute. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dracothelizard
"Then so much happens for those two toward the end of s2 and we just never get to see them really process things."

Yeah, and there are no real obvious timeskips a la 'the fortnight on the Revenge' or a vague timeline like we had in season one. Did ANYONE get a good night's sleep in s2???

"it's a problem to feel like they can't do anything about it even if they wanted to."

Especially since Ed's status on the ship is ??? He's not a captain, so the crew can't mutiny even if they wanted to because you can't mutiny against a crew member.

But yeah, in S1 mutiny seems a pretty casual thing but then suddenly it's serious business? Except that both Stede and Izzy give zero fucks about having (almost) been mutinied against.

And they could've pretty easily have had Zheng mention that where she's from mutiny is a serious thing, or that she personally doesn't approve of it or something! That would've still had the same result of Stede + crew making their escape.

"The 1x09 scene where the crew comes together to confirm that Stede is a real pirate was one of my favourites"

SAME. That and the crew trying to make off with the journal <3. I really wanted a Crew-Focused/ Ed&Stede&Izzy light episode in season two that's just Crew Shenanigans while Ed, Stede and Izzy are doing something offscreen or in only a few short scenes. And with S2 only being eight episodes, I'm fine with not getting that and there were some fun crew shenanigans in episodes 4-6.
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