I've been saving up my thoughts, telling myself that I'll eventually do some episode-by-episode posts about season 2 of Our Flag Means Death when I'm ready for a re-watch. But my notes on the finale are already a novella in and of themselves, so they're probably best dropped as they arise, and the video I recced earlier today has me particularly thinking about the speech Izzy makes in 2x08.
According to Con O'Neill, there was significant editing of this speech that re-contextualized it in some way. I'm hugely interested in how and why so, but regardless, the oddness of "because we're good" aside, it's a strong one. It tells us something about piracy. It tells us even more about Izzy. It hints about his past losses. It confirms or clarifies his attachment to Blackbeard and also what it meant to shoot him to save the crew. It gives him a win that stands in contrast to his previous losses, showing how his acceptance by the crew lets something he previously failed at (insulting people without embarrassing himself) reach its full potential.
The thing is...that speech should have been Stede's.
Not as-is, obviously, but I can't imagine there wasn't some earlier draft where the man on the opposite side of the table telling Ricky he had the wrong idea about piracy was Stede. Because Ricky is clearly a foil for Stede. He's the actual version of "God's perfect little rich boy" who ran away to be a pirate, full of overconfidence and hung up on whimsical calling cards. Only, unlike Stede, he can't deal with failure (and isn't intriguing enough to quickly catch the interest of a powerful ally like Blackbeard). Not only does he run home after his first failure and try to pretend it never happened, but he makes that failure everyone else's problem. Stede says: "What if I could make piracy better?" Ricky says: "If I can't be a pirate, then no one can."
Stede is the one who inspired Ricky to be a pirate. Stede is the one who did what Ricky couldn't. Stede is the one who wisely left the scene of their shared crime in time to avoid Ricky's maiming fate and had his luck continue through a timely rescue by Zheng. Stede is the one who Ricky should want to gloat at while they share a drink like gentlemen. Izzy and Ricky just met today.
It would have been a great payoff for all the ways Stede grew into being a pirate captain, to have him be the one to tell Ricky: You and I are not the same. You don't understand what piracy is really about. After all, Stede should now know that it's not about ego, fame, power, or bending others to your will. He should know, after everything he's gone through, that it's really about freedom and community, taking risks and growing from failure, finding yourself, finding what makes you happy.
Except...we then hit the problem of Stede not really ending the season in that place. The problem is two-fold. Or two-and-a-half-fold.
1. The writers know that Stede isn't going to stay a pirate, even if we the audience don't at this point. So, even though a not-insignificant part of season 2 is devoted to Stede wanting his crew to respect him and stay with him, and then to a penultimate episode where his success at traditional piracy causes problems for him, his feelings about piracy fall by the wayside at the climax because the episode is going to end with him giving it up.
2. The above isn't an insurmountable problem, but the season never really explicitly commits to Stede's conflict between being with Ed and being a good captain to his crew. It starts off promisingly on that front, with Stede rescuing the Feral Five even when he thought they had killed Ed, and reluctantly supporting the crew's decision to banish Ed at first. Episode 5 then seems like it's going to escalate this to the point of being addressed: Stede overrides the crew's wishes in bringing Ed back, shushes them when they try to talk about their trauma or ask questions, and then spends the episode learning from Izzy that he needs to listen to and to some extent indulge the crew when they're afraid of something he loves (the cursed suit / Ed), even when he doesn't believe it will harm them.
But that never hits a breaking point. The crew don't push on the topic of Ed the way they do on the suit. Jim, Oluwande and Archie are ready to leave Stede, but they never mention what Ed did to Jim and Archie as a factor in this. Ed leaves Stede because he can't deal with being a pirate right now, but Stede doesn't try to go after him or consider giving up piracy. It's fine that he ultimately chooses Ed, it's even in line with both previous moments where he's talked about being happy just to be with Ed and with the existing theme of "We only have one life." But we never see him weighing that decision, and the narrative doesn't force him to even when all the pieces of a conflict are in place. It just sort of happens, like the characters know it's as predetermined as the writers do.
We never really get an answer to what Stede would do if Ed hurt someone on the crew again. We don't necessarily have to believe that Ed would, but I do think we should have ended the season with at least some sense of what action Stede would take if he could conceive of possibilities beyond what the writers had already decided. What would he do if the crew had issued an ultimatum of either Ed leaving or all of them? We know Stede doesn't choose the crew when they believe Ed is a threat, but would he choose them if he believed Ed was a threat? And would choosing them mean saying goodbye to Ed, or would it mean giving up his captaincy to leave with Ed and know the crew was safe?
The show never makes him decide or seemingly even think about it after their reunion beyond the joke of the cat bell. Instead, it tries to have its cake and eat it too by positioning everyone as one happy but separated family at the end.
It was unexpectedly wonderful that we learned what Izzy's answer was to this conflict. A man who loved Ed and had built his life around him for decades dragged himself up one-legged from his deathbed to disarm him when he was trying to commit a murder-suicide with the crew. But Stede is our main character, the man who wanted to reinvent being a pirate captain, who called the crew his new family and read them stories at night, and it really feels like part of his journey this season should have been facing that hard choice between loyalty to someone you love and a duty to the crew who depends on you.
2½. Stede's lack of making a choice and therefore lack of commitment to his crew is what stops him from fully inhabiting the role of captain before giving it up, and that's a shame. We could have seen him resolve that unaddressed conflict in a speech to Ricky, but it would have required changes to the script past that as well. If we're meant to see Stede as having come into his own as captain, we'd expect him to take point in the subsequent escape attempt. He's in the best position to pass himself off as an officer, and it was established in 2x05 that he has every reason to believe he'd be safe doing so because his body just sort of takes over when he's in danger—twice stopping an enemy before Izzy could finish drawing his sword on his behalf. (And in retrospect, how messed up is it to have Stede pretty smugly describe his own invulnerability to a man who will shortly after die from the sort of injury Stede has twice walked off?)
We can't have Stede giving a speech about the crew being the most important thing and then hanging back while a subordinate with a notable prosthesis who can't run puts himself in the line of fire, so Stede doesn't give the speech. Izzy does, and in doing so, the closest thing we have to a commanding officer who expresses a commitment to the crew dies. Meanwhile, Zheng loses her entire fleet and her and Auntie's closing lesson is about being okay with failure.
I don't think it's wrong per se to have the captains end up where they do. But in light of the speech, and in a season that introduced the idea that mutiny is a capital crime that other captains will kill even a victimized crew for, it's just kind of odd to end with all three captains being at peace with not having lived up to the commitment of the position while the one person who grew into expressing and embodying that ideal died. I don't think this was at all an intended message, but rather a problem the show had with the concept of importance. It feels like some writers saw Ed and Stede's rank and protagonist status as one and the same. As though Ed and Stede being the most important people on the ship is what made them the most important characters, and so we're meant to care about how being in power makes them feel as protagonists (stressed by the responsibility, fulfilled or not by their crew's regard, bored or stimulated, successful or not) but not how them being in power makes the less 'important' characters feel. Some writers obviously did care very much about the question of power for those who don't have it. But at some point it seems to have been decided that a statement like "[People in power]...just get away with [hurting the rest of us], and we move on" would be resolved by the people in power throwing the crew a pizza party.
So the speech had to be Izzy's instead of Stede's, as much as I wish otherwise. Now I'm going to talk more briefly (I promise) about why it should have been Ed's.
This isn't to say that I think Ed should have made the speech to Ricky. But Con O'Neill has more than once referred to the speech as Izzy's eulogy. Izzy has to deliver his own eulogy. That's depressing in and of itself, but when combined with the fact that the goodbye between him and Ed is also his own monologue, it means that Ed never ends up having a voice in the end.
Imagine seeing how much Ed has grown through this experience by how he eulogizes Izzy. He could have had the opportunity to talk about what he regretted about his past and what he wanted to do differently in the future. We could have seen how funerals bring families together, as David Jenkins put it, through Ed and the crew connecting through that speech. Not Ed looking for an admiring audience like he did with them before, or parroting a corporate apology that Stede fed him, but being honest and vulnerable with them on the subject of a loss they were sharing.
Is Ed just saying "Well, that's that then" and calling the man he tortured, maimed and tried to kill "a fucking nightmare" the last words Izzy would have wanted? Well...yeah, probably. But that's not who Ed wants to be. Letting him put some self-reflection into words after losing someone he spent so much of his old life with—and with him, losing the chance to ever fully set things right—could have shown us a changed Ed.
Instead, it's Izzy who comes into his own and Izzy who dies. And while we have the sense that the crew will be fine because of how we saw them come together for Izzy, it's jarring to be told there's been reconciliation and yet feel like they're probably better off without Ed and Stede on the ship right now. As much as I love Izzy getting such a good scene, it feels like that time really should have gone to the leads.
Why not let Izzy bestow one of his nods of approval to Stede after Stede delivers that verbal slam to Ricky, then let Izzy insist on taking point so that Stede stays with Ed or watches the crew's backs?
Why not let us find out about Izzy's lost family and desire to belong through Ed delivering his eulogy, revealing that he did know him better than anyone else and can now answer the question of what Izzy was to him?
(Or, you know, why not let Izzy live and have Stede's arc pay off as a captain who's earned the loyalty of his first enemy and Ed's arc pay off by him willingly letting go of his unhealthy patterns with Izzy?)
This is one of those areas of the finale script where I really wish I was privy to all the options discussed, because I'm really interested in what else might have been on the table and what swayed things in this direction.
Izzy:You don't know the first thing about piracy, do you? It's not about glory. It's not about getting what you want. It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. It's about finding the family to kill for when yours are long dead. It's about letting go of ego for something larger: the crew.
Ricky: I destroyed the Republic of Pirates, and that makes me the ultimate pirate.
Izzy:You're not a pirate, lad. You're a spoiled, entitled bunch of twats dressed in puffy blue nighties. Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire because...we're good. And you are a rancid, syphilitic cunt.
According to Con O'Neill, there was significant editing of this speech that re-contextualized it in some way. I'm hugely interested in how and why so, but regardless, the oddness of "because we're good" aside, it's a strong one. It tells us something about piracy. It tells us even more about Izzy. It hints about his past losses. It confirms or clarifies his attachment to Blackbeard and also what it meant to shoot him to save the crew. It gives him a win that stands in contrast to his previous losses, showing how his acceptance by the crew lets something he previously failed at (insulting people without embarrassing himself) reach its full potential.
The thing is...that speech should have been Stede's.
Not as-is, obviously, but I can't imagine there wasn't some earlier draft where the man on the opposite side of the table telling Ricky he had the wrong idea about piracy was Stede. Because Ricky is clearly a foil for Stede. He's the actual version of "God's perfect little rich boy" who ran away to be a pirate, full of overconfidence and hung up on whimsical calling cards. Only, unlike Stede, he can't deal with failure (and isn't intriguing enough to quickly catch the interest of a powerful ally like Blackbeard). Not only does he run home after his first failure and try to pretend it never happened, but he makes that failure everyone else's problem. Stede says: "What if I could make piracy better?" Ricky says: "If I can't be a pirate, then no one can."
Stede is the one who inspired Ricky to be a pirate. Stede is the one who did what Ricky couldn't. Stede is the one who wisely left the scene of their shared crime in time to avoid Ricky's maiming fate and had his luck continue through a timely rescue by Zheng. Stede is the one who Ricky should want to gloat at while they share a drink like gentlemen. Izzy and Ricky just met today.
It would have been a great payoff for all the ways Stede grew into being a pirate captain, to have him be the one to tell Ricky: You and I are not the same. You don't understand what piracy is really about. After all, Stede should now know that it's not about ego, fame, power, or bending others to your will. He should know, after everything he's gone through, that it's really about freedom and community, taking risks and growing from failure, finding yourself, finding what makes you happy.
Except...we then hit the problem of Stede not really ending the season in that place. The problem is two-fold. Or two-and-a-half-fold.
1. The writers know that Stede isn't going to stay a pirate, even if we the audience don't at this point. So, even though a not-insignificant part of season 2 is devoted to Stede wanting his crew to respect him and stay with him, and then to a penultimate episode where his success at traditional piracy causes problems for him, his feelings about piracy fall by the wayside at the climax because the episode is going to end with him giving it up.
2. The above isn't an insurmountable problem, but the season never really explicitly commits to Stede's conflict between being with Ed and being a good captain to his crew. It starts off promisingly on that front, with Stede rescuing the Feral Five even when he thought they had killed Ed, and reluctantly supporting the crew's decision to banish Ed at first. Episode 5 then seems like it's going to escalate this to the point of being addressed: Stede overrides the crew's wishes in bringing Ed back, shushes them when they try to talk about their trauma or ask questions, and then spends the episode learning from Izzy that he needs to listen to and to some extent indulge the crew when they're afraid of something he loves (the cursed suit / Ed), even when he doesn't believe it will harm them.
But that never hits a breaking point. The crew don't push on the topic of Ed the way they do on the suit. Jim, Oluwande and Archie are ready to leave Stede, but they never mention what Ed did to Jim and Archie as a factor in this. Ed leaves Stede because he can't deal with being a pirate right now, but Stede doesn't try to go after him or consider giving up piracy. It's fine that he ultimately chooses Ed, it's even in line with both previous moments where he's talked about being happy just to be with Ed and with the existing theme of "We only have one life." But we never see him weighing that decision, and the narrative doesn't force him to even when all the pieces of a conflict are in place. It just sort of happens, like the characters know it's as predetermined as the writers do.
We never really get an answer to what Stede would do if Ed hurt someone on the crew again. We don't necessarily have to believe that Ed would, but I do think we should have ended the season with at least some sense of what action Stede would take if he could conceive of possibilities beyond what the writers had already decided. What would he do if the crew had issued an ultimatum of either Ed leaving or all of them? We know Stede doesn't choose the crew when they believe Ed is a threat, but would he choose them if he believed Ed was a threat? And would choosing them mean saying goodbye to Ed, or would it mean giving up his captaincy to leave with Ed and know the crew was safe?
The show never makes him decide or seemingly even think about it after their reunion beyond the joke of the cat bell. Instead, it tries to have its cake and eat it too by positioning everyone as one happy but separated family at the end.
It was unexpectedly wonderful that we learned what Izzy's answer was to this conflict. A man who loved Ed and had built his life around him for decades dragged himself up one-legged from his deathbed to disarm him when he was trying to commit a murder-suicide with the crew. But Stede is our main character, the man who wanted to reinvent being a pirate captain, who called the crew his new family and read them stories at night, and it really feels like part of his journey this season should have been facing that hard choice between loyalty to someone you love and a duty to the crew who depends on you.
2½. Stede's lack of making a choice and therefore lack of commitment to his crew is what stops him from fully inhabiting the role of captain before giving it up, and that's a shame. We could have seen him resolve that unaddressed conflict in a speech to Ricky, but it would have required changes to the script past that as well. If we're meant to see Stede as having come into his own as captain, we'd expect him to take point in the subsequent escape attempt. He's in the best position to pass himself off as an officer, and it was established in 2x05 that he has every reason to believe he'd be safe doing so because his body just sort of takes over when he's in danger—twice stopping an enemy before Izzy could finish drawing his sword on his behalf. (And in retrospect, how messed up is it to have Stede pretty smugly describe his own invulnerability to a man who will shortly after die from the sort of injury Stede has twice walked off?)
We can't have Stede giving a speech about the crew being the most important thing and then hanging back while a subordinate with a notable prosthesis who can't run puts himself in the line of fire, so Stede doesn't give the speech. Izzy does, and in doing so, the closest thing we have to a commanding officer who expresses a commitment to the crew dies. Meanwhile, Zheng loses her entire fleet and her and Auntie's closing lesson is about being okay with failure.
I don't think it's wrong per se to have the captains end up where they do. But in light of the speech, and in a season that introduced the idea that mutiny is a capital crime that other captains will kill even a victimized crew for, it's just kind of odd to end with all three captains being at peace with not having lived up to the commitment of the position while the one person who grew into expressing and embodying that ideal died. I don't think this was at all an intended message, but rather a problem the show had with the concept of importance. It feels like some writers saw Ed and Stede's rank and protagonist status as one and the same. As though Ed and Stede being the most important people on the ship is what made them the most important characters, and so we're meant to care about how being in power makes them feel as protagonists (stressed by the responsibility, fulfilled or not by their crew's regard, bored or stimulated, successful or not) but not how them being in power makes the less 'important' characters feel. Some writers obviously did care very much about the question of power for those who don't have it. But at some point it seems to have been decided that a statement like "[People in power]...just get away with [hurting the rest of us], and we move on" would be resolved by the people in power throwing the crew a pizza party.
So the speech had to be Izzy's instead of Stede's, as much as I wish otherwise. Now I'm going to talk more briefly (I promise) about why it should have been Ed's.
This isn't to say that I think Ed should have made the speech to Ricky. But Con O'Neill has more than once referred to the speech as Izzy's eulogy. Izzy has to deliver his own eulogy. That's depressing in and of itself, but when combined with the fact that the goodbye between him and Ed is also his own monologue, it means that Ed never ends up having a voice in the end.
Imagine seeing how much Ed has grown through this experience by how he eulogizes Izzy. He could have had the opportunity to talk about what he regretted about his past and what he wanted to do differently in the future. We could have seen how funerals bring families together, as David Jenkins put it, through Ed and the crew connecting through that speech. Not Ed looking for an admiring audience like he did with them before, or parroting a corporate apology that Stede fed him, but being honest and vulnerable with them on the subject of a loss they were sharing.
Is Ed just saying "Well, that's that then" and calling the man he tortured, maimed and tried to kill "a fucking nightmare" the last words Izzy would have wanted? Well...yeah, probably. But that's not who Ed wants to be. Letting him put some self-reflection into words after losing someone he spent so much of his old life with—and with him, losing the chance to ever fully set things right—could have shown us a changed Ed.
Instead, it's Izzy who comes into his own and Izzy who dies. And while we have the sense that the crew will be fine because of how we saw them come together for Izzy, it's jarring to be told there's been reconciliation and yet feel like they're probably better off without Ed and Stede on the ship right now. As much as I love Izzy getting such a good scene, it feels like that time really should have gone to the leads.
Why not let Izzy bestow one of his nods of approval to Stede after Stede delivers that verbal slam to Ricky, then let Izzy insist on taking point so that Stede stays with Ed or watches the crew's backs?
Why not let us find out about Izzy's lost family and desire to belong through Ed delivering his eulogy, revealing that he did know him better than anyone else and can now answer the question of what Izzy was to him?
(Or, you know, why not let Izzy live and have Stede's arc pay off as a captain who's earned the loyalty of his first enemy and Ed's arc pay off by him willingly letting go of his unhealthy patterns with Izzy?)
This is one of those areas of the finale script where I really wish I was privy to all the options discussed, because I'm really interested in what else might have been on the table and what swayed things in this direction.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-13 08:32 am (UTC)I was also surprised by the lack of follow through re: Ricky being a pretty obvious foil to Stede.
And yes to a vulnerable Ed. We needed that. Ibalso agree that we should have known what Stede would do if Ed went bad again.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 12:51 am (UTC)In my perfect world, Ricky would have largely been saved for season 3 so that the rivalry between him and Stede and the world-shaking threat he posed could really breathe.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-16 11:53 am (UTC)Agreed. Especially as Ed knows how much the crew means to Stede. Their first real interaction is Stede trying to bolt out of bed going "my crew!" and Ed assuring him that they were all okay.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-17 04:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-13 02:20 pm (UTC)I wanted to comment on these parts:
Izzy:...It's not about glory. It's not about getting what you want. It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. It's about finding the family to kill for when yours are long dead. It's about letting go of ego for something larger: the crew.
...Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire because...we're good.
You: According to Con O'Neill, there was significant editing of this speech that re-contextualized it in some way.
What I thought was, when Izzy says all that, I presumed it had an LGBTQ+ connection and that is why Izzy/Con was given that speech. Especially It's about belonging to something when the world has told you you're nothing. That seems to me exactly what people who ‘don’t belong’ are told—that they are nothing and they don't belong, so they make their own crew.
And the ...Kill me. Kill us all. Our spirit will last throughout your entire fucking empire... was a reference to people trying to kill off LGBTQ+ people for centuries, even in the 21st century with certain politicians trying to do that.
I'm sorry if I've completely misunderstood and misinterpreted that, it was just what popped into my head when Izzy said it.
Your points about Stede being a better choice to say the whole speech make a lot of sense though, because he and Ricky are definitely two sides of the same coin.
I think the budget being cut so drastically changed season 2 from what David Jenkins originally wanted. So if they'd had the full budget, we could have seen Stede giving that speech...
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 12:54 am (UTC)I'm definitely always going to think about what the season might have looked like if they had been greenlit for ten or twelve episodes instead of eight, or if they had stayed in LA. (I love the Aotearoa settings and some of the new actors/characters that brought in, but the locale change also closed off old sets and characters I would have liked to see come back.)
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 10:26 am (UTC)Yes, I'd love to know what could have happened if they'd been allowed 10 or 12 episodes. I like the idea of Izzy/Frenchie, I'd like to have seen how that developed, seeing as they were holding hands in at least one scene and didn't Frenchie have his head on Izzy's lap in one scene?
I have a bad feeling that we won't get a season 3 but fingers crossed we do.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 06:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 06:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 02:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-14 07:42 pm (UTC)My sense from the interviews that have come out since is that there was some period where the showrunner and producers went from a healthy skepticism about renewal to having a much more pressing worry that there wasn't going to be a season 3. I feel like the ending was a mashup of two things: getting in the parts the writers or showrunner most wanted to include from the 'original vision' (Ed and Stede having an A Star Is Born conflict, Izzy dying) and the thing they figured the post-s1 audience cared most about (Ed and Stede having the appearance of a happily ever after - with what that looked like being informed by the showrunner's commitment to the idea that the Golden Age of Piracy is imminently going to end anyhow).
I'm disappointed as a fan, but I'm also interested as a writer. I've got my share of idle WiPs, and I "know" where each of them goes after this and how they end. But things that are released serially (even without the extra complication of being collaborative projects between multiple writers and performers) are going to grow and change along with the audience and the creator. I'm thinking a lot about the elements in my own work that I'm attached to because they seemed interesting or poignant at the time I was outlining and whether they're aligned with what readers ended up connecting to in the series and whether they're actually still aligned with what I really want to do with the work-as-it-became as opposed to the potential work that was in my head at the time of planning.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-15 03:45 pm (UTC)Yes, same - I also react to writing that doesn't work for me by trying to figure out what went wrong and what I can learn from it. I suppose realizing that a serialized story has outgrown your original plans (or that you may have to cut the story short for external reasons) is a special case of "kill your darlings". At that point you no longer have the option of going back and changing the earlier parts to better support your original intentions, so you have to be honest with yourself about whether what you had in mind can still work, or if you're really just forcing it and it's not going to make sense to anyone but you.
As an aside, it occurs to me that hitting the "end of piracy" theme hard is kind of the same mistake that was made with Escape from Monkey Island. In a setting that's presented mostly as a lighthearted fantasy, I'm not sure it can work to shoehorn in that dose of harsh reality, to portray the world the audience is invested in as Doomed, Actually. It's just depressing and tonally off. (And in the case of OFMD, where piracy is closely associated with queerness, it gets worse the more you think about it.)
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-15 08:23 pm (UTC)I can see how the original OFMD pitch might have worked better with that. It's been shared that season 1—and presumably some ideas for future seasons—was first written for Ed/Stede to ultimately be unrequited, and also with the assumption that principal characters would be dying all the time à la Game of Thrones. I think David Jenkins, the showrunner, wisely won't be sharing more details about how he once pictured the ending, given that he's talked about learning a lot as a straight cis guy about tragic queer tropes and the relationship between queer audiences and mainstream media after making season 1. But it wouldn't surprise me if things were eventually leading to either Ed and Stede both dying in circumstances similar to their historical endings or Ed dying for Stede and symbolizing the end of that era through the Death of Blackbeard (instead of just through Izzy taking on part of the mantle before dying).
I'm not assuming that queerness or feelings were the butt of the joke in the original pitch, but I do think the (assumed) inherent absurdity of pirates falling in love with drastically different pirates or having modern models of psychology was a steadier core before filming started and Jenkins was surprised/inspired by a scene between Ed and Stede playing out with sincere tenderness instead of being defused by jokes. That lines up with a story that would have kept more of a focus on the real-life historical parameters of the Golden Age of Piracy and its eventual doom to make that comedy function.
That shift is one of the things I'm most interested in. I feel like there's a queer theory paper in here somewhere, and it's not as simple as "straight showrunner's framework/ultimate calls vs. organic influence from queer writers and performers." I think there might be something in how some queer creators approach that intended absurdity (taking it as more of a given and being able to build sincerity on top of it instead of stepping back from it when they need to have something land emotionally/thematically) and how they approach supporting characters more broadly (accustomed to that being where queerness has more often been allowed to happen and seeing that part of yourself in those non-starring roles) compared to the s2 ending's confidence/comfort level or lack thereof with sincerity-beyond-absurdity and its singular focus on the protagonists, with the supporting characters simply being there as foils, echoes, and heralds rather than characters with their own agency and inner lives.
From what's been revealed about who created what, a lot of the queerness and particularly the associations of piracy-as-queerness came from the queer writers and performers on a very in-the-moment basis - down to big things like Jim being nonbinary coming about during filming and through a lot of last-minute rewrites that were possible because they not only had a nonbinary actor in the role but more than one nonbinary writer on staff. See also so much of Izzy coming from Con O'Neill and what the writers took from his performance. And that flexibility and diversity made for gold in s1 and I'd argue large swathes of s2 up until it hit the conflict of reverting back to a more singular vision of what an ending looks like and what it would take to get there, and I think potentially a split between Jenkins and some of the queer creators as to what was a joke and what wasn't. (ex. Different writers taking "Izzy as Ed's metaphorically jilted wife / attracted or in love with Ed" with different amounts of seriousness until they collided in the editing room and had to cut things because some people assumed they were deliberately going for domestic abuse vibes and others had just accidentally joked their way into it with no ending-compliant plans for how to write back out of it.)
2x06, Calypso's Birthday, is something with a lot to dig into there and possibly the one episode besides the finale that I would love to see all drafts of a script for. It's a very queer episode, and it was initially intended to be even moreso. Rather than just a party, in the first draft by queer nb writer Zayre Ferrer it was originally supposed to be Lucius and Pete's wedding, and it was Jim, Oluwande, and Archie who were originally supposed to be absent because they were having a threesome all day. But from some comments from Jenkins, I think there's a division between those who just saw Ed and Stede consummating their relationship as the queer thing in that episode versus those who saw the rest of the party as equally queer - queerness as relationship status versus queerness as community and an aspect of identity that exists outside of being in a sexual or romantic relationship. And that's where things started to really get muddy for me, because if the queerness is just Ed and Stede's relationship and piracy becomes emblematic of their personal relationships with violence, and if we're not really concerned with community or side characters despite thinking we're trying to write something validating for queer audiences, it gets easy to veer the story back into that more individualistic Great Man vs. Changing Times direction that cuts a lot of the queer community stuff loose for both the themes and the supporting characters.
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Date: 2023-12-16 12:19 pm (UTC)I didn't realize the show was originally conceived as being darker and closer to the historical roots.
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Date: 2023-12-17 04:52 am (UTC)I get the sense from some of Jenkins' comments that he always wanted to nail the genuine sadness about the end of that surprisingly brief moment of history for wild and immortal characters like Blackbeard and the Gentleman Pirate. I think part of what he thought would be so gratifying for audiences in light of the pivot to a requited romance was being able to have the happier ending for Ed and Stede while still getting to have that death at the hands of the English for a character who'd risen to a level of almost similar effectiveness.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-17 04:52 pm (UTC)YEAH. This is a big part of what bugged me about S2, even leaving aside the finale. S1 felt like an ensemble made up of people with their own stories and goals (even if a few were more central because of the story's chosen focus) and S2 largely lost that.
This makes total sense to me and I was actively baffled that it didn't happen. Oluwande being pulled out of the (seemingly) blossoming triad in favor of the Oluwande/Zheng ship made so little sense to me that I actually questioned whether I had somehow missed an episode or skipped past a scene that explained it.
Yes, exactly. The centrality of queer community and identity is what made S1 feel like it was made by and for queer people. S2 actually does end up feeling like... this is a straight person's idea of what queerness means. Which is not at all what I was expecting coming out of S1.
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Date: 2023-12-18 01:13 am (UTC)I really wouldn't have either, until I read Jenkins' posts and interview after s1 about his surprise over the reaction and the (kind of basic) things he learned from the experience. In retrospect, s1 feels like the best case scenario of putting together a diverse group of writers and having a showrunner who is open to discovery and not afraid of rewrites. The queer actors have talked about all thinking theirs was the token queer character, because that element wasn't part of the pitch and instead often uncovered itself throughout the process - in large part due to excellent casting that Jenkins seems to play a significant role in.
The long friendship between Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby is likely what led to the vibe that spurred Jenkins to go for the requited romance when he saw them being legitimately tender in 1x06. Jim wasn't originally going to be nonbinary, but casting Vico Ortiz and having at least three nb writers facilitated that - and Ortiz and Samson Kayo improv'd a lot of what ended up being the canon Jim/Oluwande relationship. Con O'Neill wasn't officially out in his TV career at time of casting and didn't originally audition for Izzy, but Jenkins seems to have ended up inspired by the Izzy -> Ed and 'jilted wife' subtext that O'Neill brought to that later audition (even if, er, based on later comments he may not think Izzy is queer in the same way that Ed and Stede are, question mark, question mark).
All in all, it's an excellent example of what can happen when you get the right talent together in a collaborative environment. Maybe maintaining that lucky streak for a second season was always doomed, but a looming uncertain ending that had the creator reaching for older ideas that no longer fit probably didn't help. And I suspect neither did no longer having a sizable story editing team with an experienced dedicated Executive Story Editor. I get the sense that when coupled with moving production to New Zealand, there just wasn't as much communication for the last-minute rewrites - and so you got things like two trans writers uncovering some trans allegory as they wrote one episode and then the cis showrunner accidentally overwriting that in the next just because the significance didn't stand out to him and a purpose-scheduled Zoom call would have been needed for someone else to flag it.
This makes total sense to me and I was actively baffled that it didn't happen. Oluwande being pulled out of the (seemingly) blossoming triad in favor of the Oluwande/Zheng ship made so little sense to me that I actually questioned whether I had somehow missed an episode or skipped past a scene that explained it.
That's the one thing I'm most tempted to blame on studio interference. Jenkins' comments are often contradictory, understandably, as he tries to walk the line between pleasing fans and pleasing HBO Max, to the extent that once or twice he seems to be outright dishonest about consensus in the writers' room or about what did and didn't get scripted. But I get the sense there was pressure to give the show "wider appeal" in the second season, and having het romance was a part of that. That would also explain how intrinsically tied to inciting incidents in the plot the Olu/Zheng relationship is (and to a lesser extent, Jackie/Swede). They feel like the first things written, which would make sense if it had been part of a studio ask.
I don't know if there was a note explicitly putting the kibosh on poly altogether. There was apparently an early idea for some element of Lucius and Pete dealing with Lucius having another boyfriend that was cut, which could well have just been for economy - and likewise, Lucius not having any kind of reunion with Fang could have just been part of the crew's inner lives mattering less in s2. But I do suspect there was some direction to keep Oluwande/Zheng as a freestanding, discrete and arguably monogamous f/m relationship to appeal to the demographic they thought that would draw. (There's a Vanity Fair interview where the interviewer in a totally natural way that I'm sure wasn't part of a briefing from Max at all talks about how much she appreciated that storyline as a "female heterosexual viewer" and how it must have been part of reaching a broader audience.)
The centrality of queer community and identity is what made S1 feel like it was made by and for queer people. S2 actually does end up feeling like... this is a straight person's idea of what queerness means.
Yeah, that's it exactly. Jenkins has always talked about not wanting to make a niche show, about the importance of it being a mainstream, "four-quadrant" series that just happens to have a lot of queer characters. Don't get me wrong, that's one of the reasons I loved it and why I think it landed so well in fandom. People would still have ended up writing Ed/Stede, albeit not nearly so much, if it really were just a slashy pirate show with straight leads - because so much of it worked as a character-driven, quasi-fantasy genre piece that then inhabited itself in an integrated, unapologetic and unselfconscious way that we don't always get with queer media.
But more recently, he's moved on to saying things like "I didn’t want to make a queer show where it’s like, 'Oh, this is a specialty show. This is for people who are queer.'"
And I think that's the attitude behind a lot of what didn't end up working for me in s2, mostly on the axis of sexuality but also in terms of disability, gender, race and class in several spots. Not the matter of not wanting to make a specialty show altogether, but the matter of believing that you can make a mainstream show featuring marginalized people without sometimes making binary choices about whether a scene or message is swinging for the marginalized seats or the mainstream ones - and that if you're not even aware you're making that choice, you're always going to choose the mainstream seats in the end.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-20 09:24 pm (UTC)Right. Because, as we in fandom know, straight women are never, ever drawn to m/m romance. That's not a thing that would make your show popular among that demographic at all. Sorry, I can only roll my eyes so hard.
It's interesting, because lately I've been thinking about what makes some canon ships work for me and others not (across all fandoms, not just OFMD), and how rare it is that I like canon het ships. What I dislike is definitely not the heterosexuality, but just how forced so many het ships feel to me. And I believe that's often because they genuinely are forced, either because the writers feel that every narrative needs a romance or that characters have to get paired up, or they feel pressured by fan expectations, or the pressure is coming from TPTB - in all these cases, it is very likely that the result is awkward and easily recognized as something imposed from the outside rather than something emerging organically from the characters.
It makes sense to me what you say about so much of S1 coming from a process of discovery, because that's exactly the way it plays. It feels organic because it is organic. Oluwande/Sheng does not have that quality at all to me. It just feels like "and now these characters will pine for each other because We, The Writers say so." (I did think Jackie/Swede was cute, though.)
The thing that boggles me about this stuff is that, like, you always get diversity-haters complaining that queer representation in media feels forced or only exists to serve an agenda. But so much heterosexual romance in media feels crowbarred in, and sometimes literally is part of a "straight agenda" where people believe you can't have a successful show/movie/whatever without it, and who cares if it's good or original or interesting, the important thing is just that it's there. And maybe it's the very mainstreamness of it that makes it hard for writers to make it interesting - all the standard romance beats are there and can be retrod endlessly without giving it any thought, and people just accept it because, well... he was a guy, she was a girl, can I make it any more obvious? This kind of thinking is not the way to exercise your creativity.
Well said, and agreed.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-21 01:40 am (UTC)Same, especially with regard to it not feeling organic, whether that's because it feels forced or because it feel like...hm, assumed? Or like begging the question? Where no one shows their work because there's the presumption that the audience will be on the same page as the creator.
That's how I've ended up with so many of my favourite het ships being not just not-canon but actively and sometimes awkwardly in contravention of canon. A writer makes it notable that a male and female character aren't romantically interested in each other and I fall into shipping them because they're then allowed to have interesting interactions and a specific dynamic that develops beyond just "boy + girl = couple."
I have a handful of canon het ships, but I feel like with each one I can tell you exactly what it is about their dynamic that appeals to me, because it ended up being an extremely specific exception to the norm.
And goodness know it happens with canon queer ships too, in a slightly different way for very different reasons. I enjoyed Pete and Lucius's scenes together on OFMD, but I was never sold on that relationship being what it ended up. For me, it hit most of the markers of that queer mirror image of "he was a boy/she was a girl," where you have one gay supporting character who randomly gets together with the one lesser supporting character the creators are willing to make queer. Which absolutely isn't the case in OFMD because everyone's queer! But I still felt some of those same notes because of the lack of specificity in the build-up or execution. Partly, it's that to me at least there's inherently more of an existing interesting story and potential for chemistry in Lucius/Fang or Lucius/Izzy, and partly that the relationship as it played out didn't serve to reveal much interesting about the characters.
"Guy who's always bragging and protesting too much"/"Guy who's always read as sarcastic even when he's not trying to be" being sincere together had real potential, but instead it was just kind of "They hooked up once, and their purpose in scenes together is now just to be a committed couple after a couple of months, which doesn't come into question even when they have a major conflict about one of them having gone through life-changing trauma."
Oluwande/Zheng was the same sort of thing where there was potential there, but also a core "Why?" that the writers not just didn't answer but - maybe especially as a het romance - seemed to think there was no need to answer, to the extent of hanging major plot turns on the idea that they're set on being together. Like, all right, we can see how Zheng would like Oluwande. He is handsome and very likeable. But we've already had Mary/Doug and Jackie and her twenty husbands establish that wife guys who are supportive of your career and happy to just bring you breakfast in bed don't actually seem to be a rarity in this world. Why Oluwande in particular? Well, they spent weeks or months occasionally talking at the soup kiosk and hit it off. Okay, but we the audience didn't get to see that. And if it's that Zheng could only trust someone falling in love with her as Susan the Soup-Seller instead of Pirate Queen of China, that doesn't really come up.
And on Oluwande's side, okay, maybe he has a thing for being the reliable, peaceable sub for more dangerous types. But is just "being the break in someone's day" enough to have him ready to initially leave the Revenge without Jim? I...could see it, if his issue was that he just wants to be a kept man and isn't up to managing the stress that Jim brought into his life, but we don't get any sort of conflict about that either.
(This is where there's the most contradictions in the mix, because David Jenkins initially implied that the writers' room always thought of Oluwande and Jim as just friends who got romantic once and are now operating as amicable exes who see that their friend's new partner makes them happy in ways they never could. But then it turned out that the Archie/Jim/Oluwande trio of actors did think they were playing it as poly, that a script that made it to the actors had the threesome consummated, and that a scene where Oluwande was talking about just wanting to get back to Jim was cut.)
So we ended up with a weirdly central new romance that changed up not just existing relationships but the whole course of the plot. But unlike Ed and Stede's whirlwind romance - which was initially set up to demonstrate that each had something huge missing in their lives that the other could unexpectedly help fill, and was then also explicitly called out as whim-driven - this one moves just as fast and unwisely but is positioned as a good thing that happened just because a man and a woman hit it off off-screen and then apparently wanted to change their whole lives to keep dating.
The thing that boggles me about this stuff is that, like, you always get diversity-haters complaining that queer representation in media feels forced or only exists to serve an agenda. But so much heterosexual romance in media feels crowbarred in, and sometimes literally is part of a "straight agenda" where people believe you can't have a successful show/movie/whatever without it, and who cares if it's good or original or interesting, the important thing is just that it's there.
This, absolutely. I wrote up another two paragraphs that I've since deleted, because I'd once again just be saying at length what you've managed a lot more succinctly. :P
And maybe it's the very mainstreamness of it that makes it hard for writers to make it interesting - all the standard romance beats are there and can be retrod endlessly without giving it any thought, and people just accept it because, well... he was a guy, she was a girl, can I make it any more obvious? This kind of thinking is not the way to exercise your creativity.
And the thing is, I don't know that it takes all that much creativity to make it interesting - just a few minutes' thought to make romance about who characters are and what they want instead of just proximity and expectation. (Following a few minutes' thought about whether there's a real reason to have the romance in the first place, obviously.) I also thought Jackie/The Swede was really cute, and the relationship built on their existing characterization in an efficient way while also being a vehicle to show us a little more about both of them. If he hadn't had his arc about being accepted by the crew, the show could probably have sold me on Jackie/Izzy too, based on what we know about Izzy's priorities and what Jackie wants in a husband. I could have even been more readily sold on Zheng/Roach!
But instead, I ended up feeling like there was a mission to highlight a straight romance, and that this was then used to move the plot along in ways that would have yielded much greater dividends if it had been done through character arcs instead. Doing it through a new straight romance was just easier because you can follow the deep-dug ruts of tropes so normalized that they don't require explanation.
Ed or Stede's relationship to who Zheng is and what she represents as a professional rival or potential ally would take a bit more work in the writers' room, but I think it would have been a more satisfying story in terms of continuing to develop our protagonists and what they want out of their future with piracy. Setting up a more complicated scheme or series of plot elements that brought the two crews back together would also have taken more work, but could have been more entertaining. But bringing/keeping Zheng in the plot as a love interest and having the intersection of her crew and the Revenge's hinge on her and Oluwande being sad without each other felt like they just couldn't think of something better or had closed the door on more challenging stories.
(And don't get me started about transporting Zheng Yi Sao from a completely different time period just to make her overlook a clear trap, have her entire fleet be killed, be brought ahistorically low instead of enjoying a prosperous retirement like she did in real life, and have it played as a happy ending because she learned to accept failure and now has a sweet boyfriend.)
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-22 04:43 pm (UTC)Yes, this is it exactly! And same, I often find myself very interested in dynamics between male and female characters who aren't canonically shipped. (Or before they're canonically shipped and suddenly turn into completely different and much more boring people... *cough*Mulder/Scully.)
I was also not sold on Pete/Lucius as a married couple, and in fact wondered if we were heading for a complication in which it turns out that Lucius is rushing into this in part because of the trauma he's been through and being desperate for stability. (Not that I was oppposed to the ship in itself, just the progression of it seemed... fast.) But that, of course, didn't happen.
Yeah. I guess that's the disconnect - again, the presumption that whatever the consequences, it's okay because they're doing it For (Hetero) Love. It particularly rubbed me the wrong way to have Jim and Archie playing matchmaker for Zheng and Olu, because... I dunno, it was like we suddenly veered from a queer-centered narrative to relegating queer people to the role of supporting an (apparently) much more important m/f couple. I guess they felt like they had to have that so it would be clear that Jim and Archie weren't pissed off at Olu's choices, but like I said before, this just ended up feeling like they were making the characters do and say and think what was convenient for the writers, not what would actually be realistic in-universe.
You know, I have a nonfiction book about pirates that I am pretty sure discussed Zheng Yi Sao, but it's been a long time since I read it and I didn't remember her real history. Knowing that history definitely doesn't help!
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-22 05:43 pm (UTC)Exactly one of the situations that came to mind. I remember all the fannish dialogue back in the day about what to even call Mulder/Scully at first, because of just how different from most "shippable" (to highlight the now-ubiquity of that term!) het pairings it felt due to not actually being written as an immediate will-they/won't-they-but-let's-not-kid-ourselves. And then how so much of what had made it appealingly different was lost when it went canon.
It particularly rubbed me the wrong way to have Jim and Archie playing matchmaker for Zheng and Olu, because... I dunno, it was like we suddenly veered from a queer-centered narrative to suddenly relegating queer people to the role of supporting an (apparently) much more important m/f couple.
This. It would have helped a lot to keep the poly element in, because then it would have at least had Jim and Archie excited over an "and" rather than the "else" of backgrounding their own new relationship for an f/m couple that we're being told is more important but not shown. But I'm also just really feeling the lost opportunity to invest some of Jim's time in Jim.
I was so intrigued by where they were going in the first couple of episodes. We saw Jim be the one to implement what they learned from their time under Stede's captaincy: telling the puppet story to comfort Fang, recognizing that Frenchie isn't okay, taking a leading role in the intervention with Izzy. Then we saw them combine that with their own grit and journey: speaking up to Ed, refusing to fight Archie, striking the 'killing blow' in the mutiny while knowing what murder feels like. I went from thinking post-s1 that maybe Jim could be a first mate to Oluwande someday to thinking post 2x02 that Jim was actually a captain in the making.
Archie/Jim might have been just as new an introduction as Oluwande/Zheng, but the relationship actually did something interesting for Jim's character - moving from showing them as the more cynical and chaotic partner to being the one that a partner with just as wild a backstory considers "cute" for their optimism. Change, growth, arc! Keeping the camera on Jim wouldn't just have been a more interesting story for me, but would have been more thematically consistent with Stede and Ed figuring out their lives. Instead, it's not just Jim's f/x relationship that gets shoved aside for the f/m one, but it's Jim's trauma and personal growth as well. It adds to the feeling that when the show said that they just had to move on, "moving on" actually meant moving the plot along. As a result, I'm pretty sure Jim is never shown to have another actual conversation with anyone they survived the Breakup Boat period of the Revenge with in the latter half of the show, and instead is made whole by facilitating Oluwande/Zheng.
Knowing that history definitely doesn't help!
I know, right? I was up for the anachronism, and honestly, I adored Ruibo Qian's performance and wouldn't trade any of her non-romance scenes for anything. But in retrospect, if David Jenkins was set on leaning into the end of the Golden Age of Piracy and Ricky succeeding, I wish the writers had tightened up the season by having her and Auntie's roles filled by Anne Bonny and Mary Read instead. Have those two be prompted by Calico Jack's death and/or Ed's new raiding record to hatch their own plan to conquer/partner with all of the pirates in the Caribbean to extort Ricky into funding their retirement. Then bam, you've got the topic of "what retirement exists beyond death" more centrally and consistently on the table, and a thematic way to have Ed and Stede and crew be actually thinking about what a future in piracy means to them. Is it prosperity? Freedom? Independence? Being with the people you love?
Zheng Yi Sao was a super interesting figure, and I was on board with bringing Chinese piracy into the show. But given that they went and killed off pretty much every Chinese pirate and rewrote Zheng's story as a failure, why not rewrite history to give Anne and Mary a more triumphant high instead (and likewise spend more time on what was long rumoured to be a historical queer relationship)?
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-23 08:52 pm (UTC)That would have been so good!! I would have loved to see that played as poly compersion (which... might be what the actors were actually thinking?? boy, this gets more confusing the more I learn about it) but I suppose for that you'd also have to rearrange the whole plot. Not that I'd have been opposed.
I agree that it seemed like a missed opportunity to spend so little time on Jim's character, and that Anne Bonny and Mary Read were criminally underused. AUs to the rescue, I suppose. :)
I should find a good book on Zheng Yi Sao. The book I know I read before was more of a general overview of interesting pirates, and I remember thinking it was kind of all over the place and could have used better focus.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-25 03:16 am (UTC)If you find a good book on Zheng Yi Sao let me know!
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Date: 2023-12-28 12:03 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-28 12:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-18 07:37 pm (UTC)"a season that introduced the idea that mutiny is a capital crime that other captains will kill even a victimized crew for" Which is still kinda ??? although I have no idea if that was a historical fact, or if it was meant to be a thing Zheng does as part of her 'everyone will join me or die' thing where she specifically didn't want people with a history of mutineering as part of her crew?
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-18 08:39 pm (UTC)Yeah, someone had a good post recently about the change between s1 and s2 on this. That we had that space in s1 for Stede to talk about his experiences and feelings to Jim and Oluwande, the elder counsellor on the island, Mary and his previous cohort in Barbados, etc., and we likewise had Ed talking to Stede and Izzy. Then so much happens for those two toward the end of s2 and we just never get to see them really process things, aside from Ed's talk with Fang that's more the setup for Ed thinking about things (and the cop-out of "I didn't know you were screaming not laughing"). There's no Talking It Through As A Crew, and that was especially needed in terms of looping us in on where Stede is at.
Which is still kinda ??? although I have no idea if that was a historical fact, or if it was meant to be a thing Zheng does as part of her 'everyone will join me or die' thing where she specifically didn't want people with a history of mutineering as part of her crew?
100%. I really wish the show had set up the parameters for this better, because it's suddenly just a thing that Izzy seems to already know about, when before the show was actually a lot more historically accurate in giving the crew the power to decide who led them. I get that it creates an excuse for Stede et al to separate from Zheng in a way that brings Oluwande with them and gives us a meaningful moment of Stede stepping up to save the people he thinks killed the love of his life. But it inadvertently created a real hurdle in terms of selling me on the crew having forgiven Ed.
If this was still the world where the crew would mutiny on Stede for just being weird and casually talk about doing it again, and where they mutinied on Izzy more for being insufferable than for being a threat, and where we could easily believe that Calico Jack got mutinied three times a year, then I think I could more easily believe they were either okay with Ed coming back or had at least lost interest in that situation. But when you have them traumatized by him and then have Stede override their wishes not to have him on board, it's a problem to feel like they can't do anything about it even if they wanted to.
The 1x09 scene where the crew comes together to confirm that Stede is a real pirate was one of my favourites, but that kind of loyalty and affection can't exist in season 2 when it no longer feels like they have a meaningful choice in who their captain is or who he allows on board. We see Oluwande, Archie, and Jim ready to leave, but we don't see Stede winning them back through any proof that the Revenge is where they want to be or that he can be the captain they want. They just have the option of leaving removed because almost every other pirate ship in the Caribbean blows up.
(no subject)
Date: 2023-12-20 02:30 pm (UTC)Yeah, and there are no real obvious timeskips a la 'the fortnight on the Revenge' or a vague timeline like we had in season one. Did ANYONE get a good night's sleep in s2???
"it's a problem to feel like they can't do anything about it even if they wanted to."
Especially since Ed's status on the ship is ??? He's not a captain, so the crew can't mutiny even if they wanted to because you can't mutiny against a crew member.
But yeah, in S1 mutiny seems a pretty casual thing but then suddenly it's serious business? Except that both Stede and Izzy give zero fucks about having (almost) been mutinied against.
And they could've pretty easily have had Zheng mention that where she's from mutiny is a serious thing, or that she personally doesn't approve of it or something! That would've still had the same result of Stede + crew making their escape.
"The 1x09 scene where the crew comes together to confirm that Stede is a real pirate was one of my favourites"
SAME. That and the crew trying to make off with the journal <3. I really wanted a Crew-Focused/ Ed&Stede&Izzy light episode in season two that's just Crew Shenanigans while Ed, Stede and Izzy are doing something offscreen or in only a few short scenes. And with S2 only being eight episodes, I'm fine with not getting that and there were some fun crew shenanigans in episodes 4-6.