delphi: An illustrated crow kicks a little ball of snow with a contemplative expression. (Default)
[personal profile] delphi
This is just me poking at my own (negative) reaction to something that was shared about a joke in the Our Flag Means Death finale that didn't fully make it onscreen. I know it goes without saying around here, but this isn't a slam on the person who shared it—I just have continuing thoughts I keep chewing on about the show and about some of the production details that I think speak to larger trends.


Our Flag Means Death creator David Jenkins has talked about how the show was never originally intended to be a romance, or at least not a requited one. His decision to make Ed/Stede more than one-sided was an extremely late-stage pivot. They had already started filming, and one of the first scenes they shot was the one in s01e06 where Ed has just had a PTSD flashback and is curled up in a bathtub confessing to Stede through tears that he doesn't think he's a good person. Jenkins was struck by the way Rhys Darby and Taika Waititi played one of the exchanges with honest emotion instead of throwing it away into a joke, and the rest was history.

(Note: I take everything David Jenkins says with a grain of salt. Good faith, he's been accidentally contradictory in his statements about the show. Bad faith, he's been outright dishonest. But I'm inclined to believe this one because it pre-dates the era of more defensive comments and was backed up by implication by the cast.)

This revelation stuck with me for two reasons. The first is admiration. The sunk cost fallacy is real, and I can only imagine how much more tempting it is when you're creating something that directly involves dozens of people and a large budget. It takes real courage and creative commitment to scrap a previous plan and take the leap to something new when a potentially stronger, more interesting story presents itself.

The second is that it supported my feeling that what many writers had turned into a setup had originally been a punchline. The idea of 18th century men in a violent profession having feelings, experiencing trauma, and being queer is taken as a given in the show's better moments, but periodically there's a sense that these things were meant to be incongruous enough that taking them seriously was the beginning and end of the joke, with not everyone having the comfort or confidence to then handle them in a serious narrative. Because what else was that bathtub scene intended to do if the presence of some honest emotion was unexpected enough to prompt a complete re-envisioning?

Not that I would put money on the distinction breaking down neatly between writers. People contain multitudes, television is a collaborative medium, etc. But this is one of those series that varied so much that I started looking up who wrote and edited each episode fairly early on, and there are definitely trends.

Anyway, I ended up thinking about all this again recently, after seeing a clip in which someone from the production team laughingly described an element that was filmed but didn't end up in-shot in the final cut of the finale. She was talking about how, in the scene where there are a bunch of dead English naval officers who are being stripped of their uniforms, we were supposed to be able to see that some of them were wearing women's lingerie underneath.

Under other circumstances, my reaction would probably have just been, 'Enh, I'm glad they didn't do that.' But what took me further aback was that she described this costuming decision as being "to push the queerness of the show."

And it's like...no. That's not what that was. That's a tired gag we've seen a million times for at least half a century, in which queerness is the punchline. The joke there is that someone in a traditionally masculine role of authority is revealed against their will to be queer and/or kinky in a moment of defeat. The laugh comes from absurdity and surprise because that's not something that someone like them "should" be wearing, and it positions both the secret and its forced reveal as humiliating and proof of deviancy or weakness.

These are villains whose deaths we were supposed to cheer. Showing them in lingerie under their uniforms isn't a coherent act of queering given the positions of piracy and the navy in the narrative, and neither is it delivering humour by happenstance through queer characters. It's just a joke about crossdressing that relies on the understanding that it's not normal and that it's embarrassing. At a stretch, in terms of trying to see it through a lens of subversion instead of just a regressive trope, it still plays into the equally tired idea that those in the establishment who are most responsible for hurting queer people are secretly queer themselves. Either way, the vibe with which the anecdote was shared didn't go beyond "it's funny and naughty."

It's not the worst possible joke with roots in homophobia by a long shot. (I mean, it would have played additionally poorly in conjunction with what happens to Izzy—a man who was recently willing to put his own toxic performance of masculinity aside to try drag, and whose glad adoption of a femme/fanciful accessory is what gets him clocked as Other and killed—but given the last-minute change from ten episodes to eight, there's maybe a chance the lingerie scene was conceived of and filmed before they decided to kill off Izzy in the same episode.) It's just an interesting example of a potential pitfall when queer comedy, or even just queer representation in comedy, is approached as simplistically as "showing a queer thing or person in a way that makes you laugh."

For the record, I have no idea of the orientation of the person who told this story. Even though I do think the showrunner's limitations as a straight cis man who by his own admission had to get a 101-level intro to queer tropes while making the show are relevant to a lot of my issues with s2, at the end of the day, we all grew up soaking in heteronormative media and all have our blind spots.

But I find myself going back to when David Jenkins was out there telling people that Our Flag Means Death was not a "queer show for queer people," but rather a four-quadrant show for everyone. I know I've talked before about how making something "for everyone" inevitably results in making things for the majority, and I feel like that also goes a long way toward lowering the bar and removing space for people to take a more thoughtful approach to "pushing the queerness" of a show beyond what percentage of words or visuals superficially diverge from heteronormativity.

Mileage varies, obviously. The fact that this anecdote seems to have been happily received when it was first shared and is recirculating with the framing that it would have been a fun/hot detail means I could be the outlier on this one. But it was still food for thought for me with regards to mainstream shows (selectively/inconsistently) marketed as queer, and to what we can all conceivably have slip into our writing and design when we don't take care.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 11:24 am (UTC)
lucymonster: (apologies good bitch)
From: [personal profile] lucymonster
She was talking about how, in the scene where there are a bunch of dead English naval officers who are being stripped of their uniforms, we were supposed to be able to see that some of them were wearing women's lingerie underneath.

I'm commenting now with no energy for thoughtful engagement (because I know myself and I will DEFINITELY forget to come back at all if I leave it till tomorrow) but I just wanted to say that I was nodding along placidly with your post and then I got to this sentence and my jaw literally dropped. That is, at the absolute best, some fucking APPALLING bad taste and I do not think you're overreacting at all. I try to be mindful of extending good faith to explicitly queer media (which I do feel that our left-leaning online fandom culture has a tendency to scrutinise less kindly than more robust mainstream stuff) but it really, truly sucks to see that kind of bullshit coming from creators who should absolutely 100% have known better. It's reminding me of Andor s2 when the beloved leftist darlings of Star Wars decided that Surprise! Dead Lesbians For Literally No Reason would be a valuable development in their story. Like, fuck you. This joke is a different vibe but gives me the same reaction somehow.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 02:49 pm (UTC)
author_by_night: (I really need a new userpic)
From: [personal profile] author_by_night
I don't have a lot to add to this. I'm appalled that they were going to show the officers wearing women's clothing to humiliate them, for the reasons you stated.

It really surprises me that it wasn't originally meant to be a queer show, but it casts things like the bathroom scene into a new light.

ut it was still food for thought for me with regards to mainstream shows (selectively/inconsistently) marketed as queer,

Absolutely. I've been thinking about that myself lately.

and to what we can all conceivably have slip into our writing and design when we don't take care.

That's another I've been thinking about, as a writer with queer characters. I want to make sure my rep isn't lazy. I plan on looking for a sensitivity reader so that I do my due diligence.
Edited Date: 2026-06-21 02:50 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-22 10:35 pm (UTC)
author_by_night: (I really need a new userpic)
From: [personal profile] author_by_night
Which is a good thing! I honestly feel like s1 of OFMD is one of the biggest successes in TV history in terms of what can happen when you put together a diverse writers' room and diverse cast and are obviously very open to letting good ideas from them influence the story in big ways on the fly.


Absolutely! Diversity is a win for everyone.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 02:56 pm (UTC)
aflatmirror: Pensive man visited by a woman's apparition (Default)
From: [personal profile] aflatmirror
I didn't *know* till reading this that the bathtub scene in S1 was originally written for comedy, but it did a lot to explain my first impression when watching that scene. I remember the fandom being like "this show is so progressive, Ed is vulnerable and it's not played for laughs" and that rang hollow for me as a take because, like, wasn't it? Even with Waititi and Darby choosing to play the scene more tenderly/sincerely, there was still a residual Vibe to me of the show laughing at Ed in that moment.

The whole internal tension your piece outlines was actually, in retrospect, constantly palpable to me as a viewer as like a faint offness I couldn't put my finger on. I do still like the show, but I feel like online queer fandom culture lends itself to almost a kind of codependence with media like this, where we end up reluctant to honestly critique them (or, as you point out as well, turning the other way and being hypercritical). We don't do ourselves any favors by denying or ignoring those twinges of discomfort.

And re. that lingerie gag, what the actual fuck. I am.... relieved they cut that?? People sharing that story positively reminds me of the sort of posts that would circulate on Tumblr in like 2014 where people would point out an episode of a kids' cartoon that in context is obviously a transmisogynist joke about Man In Dress Freak Hahaha, but because it was presented with like one extra layer of irony than they were used to, the poster's reaction was like "omg this show gave zero fucks, such Queer Representation!!!" and they would get like hundreds of thousands of notes.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 03:40 pm (UTC)
bleodswean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bleodswean
So much admiration for your brain and your ability to get thought poured through your fingertips.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 04:45 pm (UTC)
muscle_wizard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] muscle_wizard
I never watched OFMD myself, I've enjoyed fanworks through osmosis (as you know, heh. It's funny after being in fandom so many years, I can get a sense when someone is writing a character based on the potential they show in canon like I imagine with Izzy).

While I knew the show was queer, and I do like my queer pirates elsewhere, I just never got around to it. I still probably won't, for no bigger reason than I simply won't.

But GOD am I so tired of these cheap reveals for even cheaper laughs (that are always SO (trans)misogynistic coded). They shouldn't have filmed it at all, literally it's always the same "joke." Forced exposure, no consent, another way to spit on someone. God, it sucks.

Yeah, you're not alone lol.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 06:33 pm (UTC)
kitarella_imagines: Profile photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] kitarella_imagines
I agree, as a straight person it annoys me too that so many villains and 'weird' characters in shows and films are revealed as or implied to be queer. It used to be so bad in the 1970s and 1980s, I thought we'd moved past that.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-22 07:04 am (UTC)
kitarella_imagines: Profile photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] kitarella_imagines
Thank you for understanding what I was saying, I was so very worried about offending someone by accident with clumsy phrasing🙏

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-21 11:21 pm (UTC)
pauraque: patterned brown and white bird flying on a pale blue background (Default)
From: [personal profile] pauraque
Recently I was having a conversation--and maybe you and I have already had this conversation--about how media, especially older media, can sometimes have a possible face-value queer-friendly reading but it's actually still making queerness the butt of the joke. The person I was talking to brought up Twin Peaks and how Cooper's acceptance of Denise can play to a modern audience as progressive, but the intended characterization note may have been "Coop doesn't bat an eye at the weirdest shit." And that reminded me of MASH and how the characters are chill about Klinger's crossdressing, which again can read progressive, but the underlying intended joke is that the characters are in such insane circumstances that nothing fazes them anymore.

Which is not exactly what you're talking about here, but I think it's related. There is a very deep cultural vein of queerness being weird, unexpected, incongruous, out of place, surprising, contrasted against normalcy. And at its most basic level, humor is a subversion of an expected pattern--without some level of surprise, there's no laugh. But if you approach something that is structured like a "queer=incongruous" joke and drop the expectation of incongruousness, then it can feel like it's just... queer. Klinger's crossdressing isn't a joke, it's just a thing that's happening (mentally mute the laugh track and you can pretend). I think [personal profile] aflatmirror's comment also touches on this. It's a mental makeover we've given to media for decades.

OFMD is different because the change of approach originated with the people making the show, not the audience. But sometimes I think the change is incomplete and there are still signs of a much more basic, standard "queer=incongruous" perspective that shows at the seams. I would suspect the cut lingerie scene is a reflection of that.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-22 12:25 am (UTC)
muscle_wizard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] muscle_wizard
Coming in to say I really love your commentary on that kind of 'mental makeover' because for me it's impossible to ignore how things can still come off today even knowing what the intention in the original airing years were.

When I go back and watch MASH, we're told in canon Klinger is trying to get out after failing to dodge the draft. I know this, and yet, at the same time: Klinger as a character never looks sloppily put together. He looks PHENOMENAL. He accessorizes, I love it. It is very easy for me to see how this could be pleasantly queer w/o the laugh track, especially when in so many episodes Klinger's crossdressing is as normal as the morning horn.

And I think inspite of the intended joke, oops, his character's humanity got in the way and it takes only one step to turn from "man tries to get discharged by crossdressing" to "man discovers he really loves putting together a slinky evening ensemble."

It's odd to be a modern viewer knowing these things weren't for us, and yet, seeing how it could be. IDK. I really appreciate your comment helping me put some of these feelings into words.

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-22 08:09 am (UTC)
dr_zook: (cave)
From: [personal profile] dr_zook
It's a mental makeover we've given to media for decades. This! It's also a code we (sadly) know how to decipher, right?

I see glimpses of this almost every day at work (in the theatre), where not half as much queer people work as one might think/hope, and everytime a queer character is introduced on stage, or the nursemaid of a baroque opera (a male singer) is to be outfitted, I have this constant low-key thrum of CRINGE. Doesn't help that the costume designer is flamingly gay himself for probably four decades, sadly, because here he's not a representative of queerness, but repressively tolerated: as long as he "stays in his gay costume department" it's alright.

*sighs* I clearly have some thoughts on this as well, but not very refined. It's just too hot! xD

(no subject)

Date: 2026-06-22 08:02 am (UTC)
dr_zook: a crop of michelangelo's sketch for the libyian sybil (sybil)
From: [personal profile] dr_zook
Since my brain is currently being fried I'm just gladly saying that I'm enjoying everybody's thoughts to your very intriguing post. Thank you for sharing it! 'Tis clearly food for more thoughts. ♥
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