Talk:Kabyles hadra

problematic contribution

• Morizot does not say that the term Kabyle hadara is a "French invention."

• It is specified Celle de « Kabyles el hadra » serait admise partous les habitants du Nord-Constantinois au témoignage du militant nationaliste Hocine Lahouel, originaire de Skida (ex-Philippeville). Personnellement je l'ai entendue dans la région de Mila. which you have removed.

• You have removed the source from Omar Carlier which states: sont appelés Kbails badra les gens de Djidjelli, qui ne parlent que l'arabe mais avec un accent kabyle marqué et se disent eux-mêmes kabyles. Et ces Kbails hadra appellent Kbails niras ceux qui, à l'ouest, parlent kabyle.

• The linguistic observations about the region are entirely relevant; the revert (especially of the map) is not justified

• Please don't "break" the references in the process (it's a formatting issue).

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

Kitouni (the source that you cited) says it. Did you read it or did you just copy the parts that interests you?

I have removed it from the lead (it's mentioned in the article's body, where it's belongs).

I disagree. If the sources doesn't mention the primary topic, then whatever it says doesn't belong in the article.

No reference broken when you reverted.

Don't present terms that nobody uses in Algeria in the present tense. M.Bitton (talk) 21:26, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

• Where does Kitouni say that the term was invented by the French?
• I disagree with you; it has its role in the introduction to help the reader geographically understand the subject.
• The inhabitants of Djidjel and its region are Kabyle Hadara, so observations on their dialect are part of the subject.
• Yes, a bot fixed it. You didn't even realize you deleted a source... [1]
• This is a matter of personal opinion; I present the subject as the source presents it, with the tenses consistent across the sources... Wp:V

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

Almost everything in the Kitouni source is about what the French said (including the usual racism of the time).

Nope.

If the sources doesn't mention the primary topic, then whatever it says doesn't belong in the article, period.

Nope, facts are not a matter of opinion. The sources are talking about a term that nobody uses nowadays. M.Bitton (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

• Kitouni begins by saying: Dans la tradition locale, le nom par lequel on désignait les populations du Nord-Constantinois semble avoir été Kabaile el Had'ra par opposition à Kabaile En-nighass [...]]" Which passage supports your claim ?
• We acknowledge a disagreement on this point.
• What do you think they are referring to? In your latest revert you removed the source from Mohammed Matmati which links Kabyle Hadara, Petite Kabylie and the language...
• No source says that this term is not used nowadays. That's your personal opinion AND WP:OR.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

He says a lot more than: apart from "semble avoir" et "on désignait", I can cite the racist mumbo jumbo that he refers to while mentioning what the French said.

I'm not them.

No reliable source says that it's used nowadays for the simple reason that there is no such ethnic minority in Algeria. Good luck finding a RS that would say otherwise. M.Bitton (talk) 22:28, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

• What are you referring to? It's up to you to support your changes with a specific passage. Which page?
• I did not receive a response regarding Mohammed Matmati.
• Jean Morizot is indeed speaking in the present tense: Dans l'Est algérien et en Tunisie, les « Arabes » distinguent deux sortes de Kabyles, les « ennigh'as » et les « el hadra »". So it's your assumption that's unfounded

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:36, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

They already are supported by the sources that refer to what the French said in the 19th century.

You won't because I can't guess what they re referring to, and nor should I. Like I said, if the sources doesn't mention the primary topic, then whatever it says doesn't belong in the article.

Who is Jean Morizot? What makes you think he's in any position to make such claims about today's Algeria and Tunisia? M.Bitton (talk) 22:44, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

As I see that the discussion is not progressing, I am requesting a third opinion. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:58, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

You made a claim, Kitouni (the source that you cited) says it, this hasn't been proven yet; you haven't even provided the page number for this information... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

I already explained that everything they said is based on the old French sources (they are literally citing the likes of Étienne Carette, etc). M.Bitton (talk) 23:11, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

I believe Jean Morizot was an administrator during the French colonial period. This indicates clear bias, and this article heavily relies on him for sourcing which is problematic. Skitash (talk) 23:10, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

• To say that Morizot was a colonial administrator and therefore biased without a source is a personal opinion, not an established fact. Gilbert Meynier simply describes him as "the historian Jean Morizot" [2]. Mohamed Harbi, an eminent historian of the Algerian War, was an independence activist; this does not diminish his merit. In any case, Mr. Bitton says he based his writing on Kitouni: [3]. However, he does not claim that it is a French invention.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 08:27, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

• I have included the relevant excerpts below. Verifiable citations indicate that the current version is a misappropriation of source. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 08:51, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

Not only is "invented" unsourced, but the term has NPOV issues as well. In the context of anthropology, "invented" has clear connotations (see e.g. Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People). "coined" would be a much better proper term for describing well... a coinage. Either way, we don't have the sourcing for it. Katzrockso (talk) 20:36, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Kitouni

This section addresses Mr. Bitton's repeated claims that the cited sources support positions they do not explicitly state. The concept of Kabyle hadara is not a French invention; the source does not support it. The excerpts below are provided solely to allow verification of the actual content of the sources. in case the geographical settings do not allow you to view the Google Books excerpts properly. Hosni Kitouni, La Kabylie orientale dans l'histoire, : pays des Kutama et guerre coloniale : [4]Monsieur Patillo (talk) 08:51, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

Excerpt from Kitouni's book P.10

Parler de « Kabylie orientale » aujourd'hui, c'est évoquer une région qui n'a plus de nom. Ce que les Français ont dénommé ainsi-l'ensemble Zouagha, Ferdjioua, vallée d'oued El Kébir-est une « fiction ethnographique » destinée à servir un dessein militaire. D'ailleurs sitôt l'unification coloniale du pays achevée, la géographie et l'histoire reprirent leur souveraine autorité. Demeurait alors une vieille entité, berceau d'une longue et tumultueuse histoire, singularité culturelle et ethnographique surnommée « Kabaile El Had'ra ». Ensemble de trente tribus, occupant un territoire compris entre Collo et Jijel, Marsa Zitoun et Bni Haroun que Marmol, au XVIIe siècle, décrivait ainsi : « Ces montagnes sont toutes ensemble quarante mille hommes de combat, dont il y a quatre mille chevaux, et depuis peu force mousquetaires et arbalétriers, mais ils sont si braves, que s'ils étaient bien d'accord, ils seraient capables de conquérir une grande partie de l'Afrique1. » Trois siècles plus tard, un savant éclairé, Marcel Emerit, notait avec admiration : « Un grand pâté montagneux, redouté par tous les maîtres du Maghreb, y compris les Turcs et où, même de nos jours [1948], les couteaux sortent facilement de leurs gaines et les balles des fusils2. » Comment dès lors mettre cette constance simplement sur le compte du hasard ou d'un atavisme grégaire comme se plurent à la qualifier les Français ? « Un pays plus boisé que cultivé, dont les indigènes ont été jugés

Excerpt from Kitouni's book P.11

ceux de toute l'Algérie qui approchent le plus du sauvage1. » Manière pour eux d'insulter une bravoure si difficilement contenue ou simple prétention de vainqueur inconsolable d'avoir été si rudement combattu ? Qu'importe ! Il y a assurément dans l'esprit d'indépendance des Kabaile El Had'ra non point l'« instinct de sauvage », mais un vrai frémissement d'une sensibilité singulière, réductible à nulle autre. Sensibilité qui n'a pu être forgée que par les événements de « la longue durée ». C'est cette histoire que nous tenterons de suivre à travers ses péripéties, ses grands drames et revers multiples, pour aller à la rencontre d'un pays et de ses hommes depuis si longtemps livrés à l'oubli sinon au dédain. Cette « Kabylie orientale dans l'histoire » qu'il eut été plus juste d'intituler « Kabaile El Had'ra dans l'histoire » nous la divisons en deux parties : l'avant et l'après 13 mai 1839, année de l'occupation française de Jijel2. Dans la première partie, nous tenterons de répondre à la question de savoir comment, et à travers quels processus complexes, l'entité Kabaile El Had'ra - le pays des Kutama - s'est forgée. C'est un survol rapide des grands mouvements historiques qui ont balayé l'Afrique du Nord en général et notre région en particulier. Une approche soutenue par le souci constant de restituer les événements dans les diverses interactions qui les ont déterminés. Si nous parvenons à faire la démonstration qu'un particularisme Kabaile El Had'ra a bel et bien existé avant 1830, nous aurons assurément atteint notre objectif. Nous entendons, par particularisme, les empreintes que laissent les événements sur l'« âme » d'une communauté, sur la manière qu'elle a de s'organiser pour vivre son présent et engager l'avenir des siens. Il nous reste alors à démontrer dans la seconde partie comment la colonisation, telle une bourrasque meurtrière, a détruit paysages, hommes, organisation sociale,

culture. Autrement dit comment le résultat de quinze siècles d'histoire a été, en moins de quarante ans, anéanti. Destruction entreprise au nom de « la civilisation qui vient au secours d'un peuple de sauvages ». Les crimes coloniaux, accomplis en Kabylie orientale, l'ont été avec une telle barbarie et une telle haine qu'il est insoutenable d'en évoquer même le souvenir. Pourtant, il faut bien que cette histoire soit écrite pour que nous avancions dans la connaissance de nous-mêmes, mais surtout, pour déjouer les pièges tendus par l'historiographie coloniale qui continue à faire des ravages dans la pensée dominante. Sous sa forme la plus visible, cette pensée « tourne autour de quelques thèmes qui tous au fond visent à fonder la légitimité de la conquête française et la charger d'une mission civilisatrice ». Dans cette vision largement ethnique, poursuit Yvon Thebert, « l'indigène est expulsé d'avant-scène et réduit à une masse de manœuvres dans laquelle suivant les

Excerpt from Kitouni's book P.13

Aux origines du nom « Kabylie orientale » Dans la tradition locale, le nom par lequel on désignait les populations du Nord-Constantinois semble avoir été « Kabaile El Had'ra » par opposition à « Kabaile En-nighass » ou « Kabaile » berbérophones du Djurdjura. Mais que signifient ces termes et quelle est leur origine ? Nous savons que Kabaile est un mot arabe1. Pour Nedjma Abdelfattah-Lalmi : « Au fur et à mesure que les villes maghrébines se développaient et s'arabisaient leurs arrière-pays étaient désignés comme territoires de "qbaïl", c'est-à-dire de tribus2. » Quant au Baron Aucapitaine, il fait remonter l'usage de cette dénomination au début du XIIIe siècle3. Les deux hypothèses se rejoignent en ceci qu'elles placent l'apparition de ce nom dans le choc né de l'affrontement entre deux cultures (berbère/arabe). Étrangement le terme « Had'ra » semble avoir une origine totalement opposée. D'après Marmol, il aurait été en usage au XVIIIe siècle « dans les tribus, chez les Kbail » pour désigner avec une connotation dédaigneuse les Arabes « qui demeurent dans les villes d'Afrique [et qui] sont appelés communément Hadara c'est-à-dire courtisans [urbanisés] et se mêlent la plupart de trafic [commerce]4 ». L'historien Moussa Lakbal5 introduit une explication qui conforte ce qu'écrit Marmol, selon lui, le néologisme « Kabaile El Had'ra » a été inventé pour désigner les descendants des tribus kutama qui auraient abandonné la vie de montagne pour aller s'installer dans les plaines et dans les cités. On leur a

Excerpt from Kitouni's book P.14

donc attribue ce nom eu égard « a leur nouvelle condition sociale comme tribus ayant acquis la culture urbaine ». D'ailleurs fait-il remarquer la prononciation exacte du terme n'est pas « Had' ra » (dénivellation, pente), mais « Hadara » (civilisation, urbanité). Kabaile El Had'ra seraient donc des « berbères arabisés » par opposition aux « Kabaile En- nighass » réputés totalement berbérophones et donc non imprégnés par la culture hégémonique arabe. Jusque très tardivement (fin XIXe siècle) les deux dénominations ont continué à être usitées à Constantine notamment pour désigner Kabyles du Nord-Constantinois et Kabyles du Djurdjura. Aucune de ces expressions n'est sortie de la sphère du parler citadin et aucune n'a été reprise par les auteurs du Moyen Âge, arabes ou latins. Tombés en désuétude progressivement, ces deux ethniques ont ensuite perdu leur sens originel. Les Français, après la conquête, les ignorèrent. Ils adoptèrent cependant l'ethnonyme « Kbaile » par opposition à Maures et Arabes pour désigner les habitants sédentaires des montagnes. Ils lui affectèrent cette graphie. « K'baile » devenant ensuite par glissement imperceptible « Kabile » pour être enfin francisé en Kabyle, Kabylie, etc. Cette généralisation posait problème dès lors qu'il fallait diviser le pays, l'organiser et attribuer un nom à chacune des subdivisions créées par le nouvel ordre. Étienne Carette chargé de mener une enquête scientifique dans le Djurdjura, entre 1841-43, publia en 1847 son fameux ouvrage dont le titre est à lui seul un programme : La Kabylie proprement dite. Développant une batterie d'arguments tirés d'une étude fouillée du pays, Carette conclut qu'il existe bien une « Kabylie proprement dite » marquée par un ensemble de caractères propres à cette région. Il limite son territoire à 146 kilomètres, entre Dellys et Bougie, établissant la frontière sud au Gergour et au Medjana. Ses traits dominants sont, selon Carette : a) l'indépendance par rapport au joug turc ; b) l'usage de la langue berbère ; c) la stabilité et le luxe relatifs des habitations ; d) la culture des arbres à fruits et l'exercice des arts professionnels. « C'est, donc, sur chacun de ces attributs que doit porter la comparaison de ce massif avec ceux qui l'entourent1. »

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 08:51, 15 December 2025 (UTC)

I will address the two issues at the same time (since they are related).

Morizot:

To say that Morizot was a colonial administrator and therefore biased without a source is a personal opinion, not an established fact. The fact that he was administrator is mentioned on pages 7-8 of the very source that you used. Jean Morizot graduated from the H.E.C (l'Ecode des Hautes Etudes Commerciales), he then worked in a bank before being assigned to the CHEAM (Centre des hautes études d'administration musulmane) where he worked as an administrator until 1962.

Also worth noting is the fact that the book (Les Kabyles: propos d'un témoin) in question was first published in 1962 (what you cited is a reprint). This "witness account" is a primary source which may or may not be of use to scholars, but it's not something that we should use, much less present what it says in the present tense (like you did).

 Note: for anyone else reading this discussion: please refer to this comment for why these two important facts are extremely relevant.

---

Kitouni:

Nous savons que Kabaile est un mot arabe. Pour Nedjma Abdelfattah-Lalmi : « Au fur et à mesure que les villes maghrébines se développaient et s'arabisaient leurs arrière-pays étaient désignés comme territoires de "qbaïl", c'est-à-dire de tribus. »

We know that Kabaile is an Arabic word. According to Nedjma Abdelfattah-Lalmi: "As the Maghreb cities developed and became Arabized, their hinterlands were designated as territories of 'qbaïl,' that is, of tribes."

le nom par lequel on désignait les populations du Nord-Constantinois semble avoir été « Kabaile El Had'ra » par opposition à « Kabaile En-nighass » ou « Kabaile » berbérophones du Djurdjura.

The name that was used to designate the populations of northern Constantine seems to have been "Kabaile El Had'ra," as opposed to the Berber-speaking "Kabaile En-nighass" or simply "Kabaile" of the Djurdjura Mountains.

D'après Marmol, il aurait été en usage au XVIIIe siècle « dans les tribus, chez les Kbail » pour désigner avec une connotation dédaigneuse les Arabes « qui demeurent dans les villes d'Afrique [et qui] sont appelés communément Hadara c'est-à-dire courtisans [urbanisés] et se mêlent la plupart de trafic [commerce]4 ». L'historien Moussa Lakbal5 introduit une explication qui conforte ce qu'écrit Marmol, selon lui, le néologisme « Kabaile El Had'ra » a été inventé pour désigner les descendants des tribus kutama qui auraient abandonné la vie de montagne pour aller s'installer dans les plaines et dans les cités.

According to Marmol, it was in use in the 18th century "among the tribes, among the Kbail" to designate, with a disdainful connotation, the Arabs "who reside in the cities of Africa [and who] are commonly called Hadara, that is to say, [urbanized] courtiers, and are mostly involved in trade [commerce]4." The historian Moussa Lakbal5 offers an explanation that supports Marmol's account; according to him, the neologism "Kabaile El Had'ra" was coined to designate the descendants of the Kutama tribes who abandoned mountain life to settle in the plains and cities.

Les Français, après la conquête, les ignorèrent. Ils adoptèrent cependant l'ethnonyme « Kbaile » par opposition à Maures et Arabes pour désigner les habitants sédentaires des montagnes. Ils lui affectèrent cette graphie. « K'baile » devenant ensuite par glissement imperceptible « Kabile » pour être enfin francisé en Kabyle, Kabylie, etc.

After the conquest, the French ignored them. However, they adopted the ethnonym "Kbaile" to distinguish it from Moors and Arabs, designating the settled inhabitants of the mountains. They assigned it this spelling. "K'baile" then became, through imperceptible evolution, "Kabile," before finally being Gallicized to Kabyle, Kabylie, etc.

Cette généralisation posait problème dès lors qu'il fallait diviser le pays, l'organiser et attribuer un nom à chacune des subdivisions créées par le nouvel ordre. Étienne Carette chargé de mener une enquête scientifique dans le Djurdjura, entre 1841-43, publia en 1847 son fameux ouvrage dont le titre est à lui seul un programme : La Kabylie proprement dite. Développant une batterie d'arguments tirés d'une étude fouillée du pays, Carette conclut qu'il existe bien une « Kabylie proprement dite » marquée par un ensemble de caractères propres à cette région. Il limite son territoire à 146 kilomètres, entre Dellys et Bougie, établissant la frontière sud au Gergour et au Medjana.

This generalization posed a problem when it came to dividing the country, organizing it, and assigning a name to each of the subdivisions created by the new order. Étienne Carette, tasked with conducting a scientific survey in the Djurdjura Mountains between 1841 and 1843, published his famous work in 1847, the title of which is itself a manifesto: *La Kabylie proprement dite* (Kabylia Proper). Developing a battery of arguments drawn from a thorough study of the region, Carette concluded that there was indeed a "Kabylia proper," marked by a set of characteristics specific to this area. He limited its territory to 146 kilometers, between Dellys and Bougie, establishing the southern border at Gergour and Medjana.

 Note: What the above should tell you is that the ethnonym "Kabyle" was invented by the French, first to designate the settled inhabitants of the mountains and later to designate exclusively the inhabitants of Kabylia (a region which was never known by that name before the French occupation). In other words, the word Kabaile (tribes) shouldn't be used interchangeably with the word "Kabyle", unless one is referring the the Kabyle people (which isn't the case here).

If this article is to survive (I don't see how, once it has been stripped of what is attributed to an administrator), then it should be renamed "Kabaile El Hadra" and its content adjusted accordingly. M.Bitton (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

• Kabaile and Kabyle are alternative romanizations of the same word, Qabaïl... This passage from Kitouni seems very clear to me: Les Français, après la conquête, les ignorèrent. Ils adoptèrent cependant l'ethnonyme « Kbaile » par opposition à Maures et Arabes pour désigner les habitants sédentaires des montagnes. Ils lui affectèrent cette graphie. « K'baile » devenant ensuite par glissement imperceptible « Kabile » pour être enfin francisé en Kabyle, Kabylie, etc. There's no need to make an unnecessary connection between "Kabyle" and "Kabail"...
• The reading will have definitively confirmed that the French did not invent the term Kabyle Hadra, but rather that upon their arrival, this term, which predated their presence, had fallen into disuse.
• The ethnonym Qbail/Kabyle was not invented by the French; the source says exactly the opposite (the passage that begins with ... Dans la tradition locale, le nom par lequel on désignait les populations du Nord-Constantinois ...). France has made a certain use of it (pour désigner les habitants sédentaires des montagnes., this generalization goes beyond the framework of Kabylia, it concerns all of Algeria: Aurès etc... and even Morocco [5].)... that's the whole nuance. If we return to the author's narrative (Kitouni), he does indeed use the term "Kabyle hadra", it's not a french POV/invention. You can therefore auto-revert your version (WP:OR).

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 16:48, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Morizot : The question isn't whether he was a colonial administrator or not, but rather why that would necessarily be a disqualifying fact ? Applied to a recommendation from the publishing space, this would be contrary to MOS: LABEL.

The rest of the observations are fairly accurate, except that CHEAM is the "Center for Advanced Studies on Modern Africa and Asia," and there's nothing preventing the use of a primary or older secondary source, especially in a context of limited sources for a "straightforward, descriptive statement of facts." (WP:PRIMARY). This brings us back to the fundamental question: you want to impose a past tense conjunction that isn't used by the sources. It must be justified with sources and not by disqualifying those that do not suit you. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

I would add this quote from Youcef Allioui, Les Archs, tribus berbères de Kabylie : histoire, résistance, culture et démocratie , 2006, p.154 which speaks very well to the present: Beaucoup de Setifiens parlent kabyle. Les Jijiliens qui se disent pourtant « Kabyles citadins » (Qbayel Hadra : kabyles citadins par opposition aux Qbayel nniyas : kabylophones) sont aussi rétifs que les Dellysois. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 19:02, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

As explained above, the word "Kabaile" and the ethnonym "Kabyle" have different meanings. The former is an Arabic word that simply means "tribes", while the latter is an ethnonym that was invented by the French, first to designate the settled inhabitants of the mountains and later to designate exclusively the inhabitants of Kabylia (hence the definition of the word Kabyle that we know today).

Aside from Morizot not being a historian, and therefore, not a reliable source, it's the fact that you presented his old claims in the present tense that is the big issue. If you still don't get this, then I can't help you.

You are also wrong about what CHEAM stands for ("Centre des hautes études d'administration musulmane" and not "Center for Advanced Studies on Modern Africa and Asia").

Youcef Allioui was a professor of economics at the University of Paris who also held an admin role in France for decades. His claim (made in passing in a book about something else) is both extraordinary and contradicted by the source that you quoted above, which says that the term survived until the 19th century before falling into disuse.

In other words, there is no such ethnic group as "Kabyle Hadra" in today's Algeria. If there was, you wouldn’t need to scrape the bottom of the sourcing barrel in a vain attempt to prove its existence.

Like I said, If this article is to survive, it should be renamed "Kabaile El Hadra" and its content adjusted accordingly. M.Bitton (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Please address the questions step by step:

• Nothing in the sources indicates that the term Kabyle Hadra was invented by the French. Therefore, you have written a WP:OR (we are talking about the term Kabyle Hadra, not Kabyle, Kabail, or any other spelling). For the spelling, see the first quote of my previous message [6].
• The CHEAM has also been called the "Centre des hautes études d'administration musulmane"; we are talking about the same thing.It's a minor point.
• Harmattan Edition [7]: Youcef Allioui holds a doctorate in social sciences. He was notably a disciple of the historian Charles André Julien. This still looks like an attack on the source.
• Désuétude means "unaccustomed" or "loss of a habit", not that it has disappeared... the WP:NPOV can also help to represent different points of view: According to X, the term is falling into disuse, but Y attests to its use... (which Wikipedia normally advises doing and not tinkering with a WP:OR to talk in the past tense about something that no one talks about in the past tense. Kitouni also states p.10 « La Kabylie Orientale dans l'histoire », qu'il eut été plus juste d'intituler « Kabaile El Had'ra dans l'histoire ». He speaks clearly in the present tense (narrative present) with a before and after 1839 (French conquest of Jijel).
• There are topics with few sources, that's just how it is, it doesn't allow for WP:OR.
• I did not agree to the previous linguistic revert [8], which is entirely relevant to the topic because it concerns the dialect spoken in the region (Jijel), that of eastern Kabylia (Kabylie orientale). Consensus from both parties is necessary before any changes are made. Yet another secondary source, Mohammed Matmati, in his "Souvenirs d'enfance de la guerre d'Algérie", makes the direct link Ainsi, cette dénomination serait le produit, d'après Kitouni (2013), de la relative arabisation de la langue de la population berbère du fait de ce contact avec les arabes. Cette transformation de la langue berbère, devenue berbéro-arabe par l'interpénétration réciproque des deux langues, associée à l'appropriation par les populations de la Petite Kabylie de certaines coutumes de la vie citadine dans leur quotidien et leurs rapports sociaux, a donné le qualificatif de « Kbaïl El-hadra », qui peut être traduit ou que l'on traduit par la Kabylie « civilisée ». C'est aussi cette « nouvelle » langue qui distingue principalement les deux Kabylies, la « Grande » et la « Petite ». Les habitants de la « Grande » Kabylie, bien qu'ils aient adopté l'Islam, ont gardé le berbère comme langue d'où le qualificatif « Kbaïl ennighas » ou le « kabyle authentique/originel »..

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

Désuétude means disuse. The French definition is "Disparition de fait d'une coutume, d'une pratique, d'un usage".

Mohammed Matmati is not a historian. He's simply commenting on what Kitoumi says (d'après Kitouni (2013)....).

I said what I needed to say (while quoting the sources), so I'm not going to entertain your relentless demands for satisfaction. Also, just because you created the article doesn't mean that can add whatever you want to it (WP:ONUS is a policy that you ought to familiarize yourself with). M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

• I had used the definition from the CNRTL : "qui n'est plus ou presque plus en usage" [9] which is based on the Latin etymology Borrowed from Latin desuetudo "disaccustomment, loss of a habit". Apart from definition questions, see my remark on WP:NPOV (it is possible to provide two points of view on two subjects).
• I understand, but your draft is a WP:OR. I therefore intend to request an RFC to resolve the issue.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:43, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

I am returning the comment on WP:ONUS ​​because are terms that were invented by the French in the 19th century that you introduced is not sourced by any secondary source, despite my repeated requests. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:45, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

Since the author is referring to the 19th century, the hair splitting is clearly pointless (we are in the 21st century).

Your repeated baseless assertion about has been properly addressed (not once, but twice) is getting very tiring and will therefore be rightly ignored from now on.

Renaming the article Kabaile el Hadra (as I suggested above) will solve the issue of what the French did (without guaranteeing the article's survival). Incidentally, Kabaile el Hadra is used more often to refer to this non-notable subject (given the low number of hits for all the names, "common name" seems like a stretch). The stub-like article, which is devoid of any encyclopedic substance, is unsurprisingly based on a couple of sources: one written by an "independent researcher" and the second, by an administrator from the colonial period. M.Bitton (talk) 01:53, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

No, you didn't answer, you wrote a long post paraphrasing what the source says and cobbled together a new synthesis Kitouni doesn't say that the term "kabyle hadra" was invented by the French, but that they adopted the term "Kabyle" (short form). The expression "kabyle hadara" even pre-existed by several centuries before French colonization (19th century). Here are Kitouni's precise quotes concerning the word "Kabyle hadra" :

p.10 : Demeurait alors une vieille entité, berceau d'une longue et tumultueuse histoire, singularité culturelle et ethnographique surnommée « Kabaile El Had'ra ». Ensemble de trente tribus, occupant un territoire compris entre Collo et Jijel, Marsa Zitoun et Bni Haroun que Marmol, au XVIIe siècle, décrivait ainsi : « Ces montagnes sont toutes ensemble quarante mille hommes de combat, dont il y a quatre mille chevaux, et depuis peu force mousquetaires et arbalétriers, mais ils sont si braves, que s'ils étaient bien d'accord, ils seraient capables de conquérir une grande partie de l'Afrique1. »

p.11 Qu'importe ! Il y a assurément dans l'esprit d'indépendance des Kabaile El Had'ra non point l'« instinct de sauvage », mais un vrai frémissement d'une sensibilité singulière, réductible à nulle autre.[...]

p.13 Aux origines du nom « Kabylie orientale » Dans la tradition locale, le nom par lequel on désignait les populations du Nord-Constantinois semble avoir été « Kabaile El Had'ra » par opposition à « Kabaile En-nighass » ou « Kabaile » berbérophones du Djurdjura.[...] Étrangement le terme « Had'ra » semble avoir une origine totalement opposée. D'après Marmol, il aurait été en usage au XVIIIe siècle « dans les tribus, chez les Kbail » pour désigner avec une connotation dédaigneuse les Arabes « qui demeurent dans les villes d'Afrique [et qui] sont appelés communément Hadara c'est-à-dire courtisans [urbanisés] et se mêlent la plupart de trafic [commerce]4 ». L'historien Moussa Lakbal5 introduit une explication qui conforte ce qu'écrit Marmol, selon lui, le néologisme « Kabaile El Had'ra » a été inventé pour désigner les descendants des tribus kutama qui auraient abandonné la vie de montagne pour aller s'installer dans les plaines et dans les cités.

p.14 D'ailleurs fait-il remarquer la prononciation exacte du terme n'est pas « Had' ra » (dénivellation, pente), mais « Hadara » (civilisation, urbanité). Kabaile El Had'ra seraient donc des « berbères arabisés » par opposition aux « Kabaile En- nighass » réputés totalement berbérophones et donc non imprégnés par la culture hégémonique arabe. Jusque très tardivement (fin XIXe siècle) les deux dénominations ont continué à être usitées à Constantine notamment pour désigner Kabyles du Nord-Constantinois et Kabyles du Djurdjura

You also removed Omar Carlier's (Historian specializing in the Maghreb) source from the introduction, even though it is very clear and speaks in the present tense (1995): Il y a bien une conscience collective diffuse résumée sous le nom de Kbaïls, qui n'a pas de traduction territoriale stricte, mais correspond grossièrement à l'espace compris entre Ménerville à l'ouest, Sétif et Djidjelli à l'est. Symptomatiquement, sur la frontière orientale , sont appelés Kbaïls hadra les gens de Djidjelli , qui ne parlent que l'arabe mais avec un accent kabyle marqué et se disent eux - mêmes kabyles . Et ces Kbails hadra appellent Kbaïls niras ceux qui , à l'ouest , parlent kabyle . Monsieur Patillo (talk) 09:42, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Ménerville should tell you everything you need to know.

At this stage, I will have to assume that you are deliberately conflating the generic term for tribes (Kabaile), the ethnonyms "Kabaile" and later "Kabyle" (as used by the French in the early 19th century to refer to those who lived in the mounatins) and the ethnonym "Kabyle" that the French invented and adopted from then on to refer to a specific ethnic group. M.Bitton (talk) 14:51, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Mr. Bitton's response ignores several points that were nevertheless confirmed by the sources:

• spelling and romanization : « K'baile » devenant ensuite par glissement imperceptible « Kabile » pour être enfin francisé en Kabyle, Kabylie, etc. (Kitouni). Kabyle or Kabaile, Hadra or el-hadra are matters of form and spelling, not of content.
• Specialists who attest to the concept do indeed exist. Youcef Allioui (Doctor of Social Sciences (disciple of the historian Charles André Julien)) or Omar Carlier (Historian specializing in the Maghreb) we can also add Jean Despois (historian): On désigne sous le nom de Kabyles les habitants de la plus grande partie de l'Atlas tellien oriental, entre la Mitidja et la plaine de Bône. La distinction qu'on a pris l'habitude de faire entre une Grande Kabylie, au Nord de l'oued Sahel-Soumam, une Petite Kabylie au Sud-Est et à l'Est de cette vallée et une Kabylie orientale qui commence un peu à l'Est du méridien de Sétif, n'a pas grand sens. Il faut, avec les indigènes, réserver le nom de Petite Kabylie ou Kabylie el hâdra à la région où les vallées se creusent entre les Hautes plaines constantinoises et la mer ;elle est arabisée de longue date. Elle s'oppose à la Kabylie en nirès ou Kabylie berbérophone....
• I'm not even going to respond to WP:FRINGE, which consists of saying that Kabylia is a "French invention" during colonization. The source of Nedjma Abdelfettah Lalmi to which Kitouni refers, the Berber Encyclopedia, where the presence of primary sources prior to colonization by several centuries (example) is sufficient to prove it and that is not the subject.
• All the questions (spelling, ethnonym, reputation...) are dilatory, designed to obscure the essential point; no source states that the concept or term "Kabyle hadra" is a French invention. This is in direct contradiction with sources that attest to a usage that was 1) local and endogenous, and 2) ancient and established before French colonization.

Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming what I said. M.Bitton (talk) 15:39, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood; this contradicts what you said... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:46, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Nope, it confirms what I said. Frankly, I don't see any point in correcting you any more. M.Bitton (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

No, precisely to be sure, you can even read Lalmi's full source... the shift from the generic term (tribe) to the region as (self-)designation is an old and indigenous (not colonial) phenomenon (Lalmi :dans l’actuelle Kabylie, « qbaïli » (homme de tribu) devient un ethnonyme par lequel les autochtones vont finir par s’auto-désigner).. The French merely adopted it, ratifying an old and pre-existing usage.

We're straying from the original question. There is no evidence that any source claims that Kabyle hadara is a term invented by the French (or colonist). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 16:00, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Addressed, repeated and summarised. M.Bitton (talk) 20:44, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Your argument fits the definition of WP:SYNTH. Repeated or summarised it remains WP:SYNTH. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

You're simply WP:BLUDGEONing at this point. I believe it's time to drop the stick. Skitash (talk) 22:46, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Request for comment (RFC) on the introduction

Which version seems most appropriate according to the sources?

1. The Kabyles Hadra or Kabyles el Hadra are the group of Arabic-speaking mountain dwellers of North Constantine who speak a sedentary Arabic dialect. The region of the Kabyles Hadara corresponds to eastern Kabylia or the land of the Kutama Berbers who have become Arabized. They are therefore found throughout the Jijel province, the north of the Mila province, and the west of the Skikda province (Collo).
2. The Kabyles Hadra or Kabyles el Hadra are terms that were invented by the French in the 19th century to refer to the group of Arabic-speaking mountain dwellers of North Constantine who speak a sedentary Arabic dialect. Their region corresponded the land of the Kutama Berbers who have become Arabized. They were found throughout the Jijel province, the north of the Mila province, and the west of the Skikda province (Collo).

See the talk page above. Provide your answers as Option 1 or 2, explanatory statements in Survey. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 09:43, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

 Note: a related request move was initiated below. Please comment on it. M.Bitton (talk) 13:52, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 1 : No source claims that this concept is a French invention; it's pure WP:OR. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 09:55, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 as explained in this thorough response, i.e., Kabyle and "Kabaile" (generic term for tribes) have had different meanings since the 19th century, when the French created the concept of Kabylia. I also suggest renaming the article Kabaile al-Hadra (which will solve the issue of the French invention). It goes without saying that use of the present tense makes no sense since there is no such ethnic group as "Kabyle Hadra" in today's Algeria (if there was, one wouldn't need to scrape the bottom of the sourcing barrel in a vain attempt to prove its existence). The other thing worth noting is the fact that this non-notable subject, which is devoid of any encyclopedic substance, is unsurprisingly based on a couple of sources: one written by an "independent researcher" and the second, by an administrator from the colonial period. M.Bitton (talk) 14:08, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 per above. In my opinion, this article's reliance on only two sources (which themselves are pretty problematic as extensively discussed above) makes it fundamentally a non-notable topic that fails WP:GNG. Skitash (talk) 14:52, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
• I've read the above discussion and maybe I missed it but I didn't find where the sources say "invented by the French" and I'll note that both the French and Arabic Wikipedias have an article by this name and I did find one modern source, but I couldn't find the full text, "Étude descriptive et comparative des parlers arabes d'Algérie dans une perspective Morphophonologique." However this isn't a page move or an AFD, so, for now, I am leaning Option 1 unless there is a secondary source that explicitly says "invented by the French." Andre🚐 02:07, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  Have you read the quoted material above? Basically, "Kabyle" is a French word (an ethnonym that was used by them to refer to the Berber speaking Kabyle people and has been used as such ever since), while "Qabael"/"Kabaile" is an Arabic word that simply means "tribes" (it was used all the Maghreb to refer to various tribes regardless of their ethnicity). That's why I suggested renaming the article. M.Bitton (talk) 02:15, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  I'm neutral on the rename, but I'm inclined to say that the different spellings are all the same so unless there is a source that explicitly says that the French invented the term (rather than that they adopted the term from an older Arabic word) or that they coined it as a novel usage of something, I see it as unsupported. Now I do speak a little bit of French but probably not as well as either of you, but I did not see the phrase something like Il a été inventé par les Français. Andre🚐 02:23, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  The different spellings are different and have different meanings. The French coined the ethnonym "Kabyle" (as explained in the section that I linked to, with an appropriate translation below each quote). M.Bitton (talk) 02:26, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  As I said, I read it, and I didn't see a source that says the French coined the term. I saw that they adoptèrent. Andre🚐 02:28, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  They adopted it, Gallicized it and gave it a different meaning (to designate the settled inhabitants of the mountains). The original word simply meant tribes. M.Bitton (talk) 02:35, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  As I said, I would need a source that explicitly says that the French coined a new term. The sources you quoted say that the term was in use and adopted by the French and Gallicized, not that they invented the term. Andre🚐 02:41, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  The quoted source says they Gallicized it and gave it a new meaning. If that's not inventing a new word, I don't know what is. M.Bitton (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  Well, the source you quoted says that Kabaile El Had'ra was in usage, and I'm inclined to say that since the French adopted it and Gallicized it and changed the meaning but the former already existed, the French didn't invent the term, because the terms have substantially similar shared etymology and the new meaning is a gradual evolution of the old meaning. The article should take the more common morphology and cover both related meanings under the heading of one term with two spellings. Andre🚐 02:48, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  new meaning is a gradual evolution of the old meaning when an Arabic word is Gallicized and given a new meaning in French, then the new word is a French word. The definition of the Arabic word (in context) remains unchanged.

  "Kabaile al-Hadra" was in use to mean "tribes of Hadra", just like "Kabaile En-nighass" meant "tribes of En-nighass". Both Arabic terms fell into disuse in the late 19th century, and the French, after coining the term "Kabylia", started using the word Kabyle to refer exclusively to Kabyle people (formerly "Kabaile En-nighass"). M.Bitton (talk) 02:54, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  That's too indirect and implied for me. I need a source that spells it out explicitly. You are reading between the lines based on your background knowledge of the general topic of Algerian Arab and Berber groups that I do not have. So I can only conclude that it is unsupported SYNTH at present, because it's not given in the sources that they invented the term, merely that a term was Gallicized (meaning the spelling was changed) and the meaning evolved (to apply to slightly different groups when referring to the "city tribes" or "urban tribes" and whether they were Arabic speakers or Berbers as I understand it) but not that they invented a term or coined a new term that was substantively a departure from the old term. If the RM below adopts the common name, would this RFC become moot? Andre🚐 19:19, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  The term was gallicized and its meaning was changed. What that means is crystal clear to me, but I understand if it isn't for the others.

  The answer to your question is yes (in fact, I proposed to rename the article during the discussion). M.Bitton (talk) 19:26, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  The full text is here [10]. Katzrockso (talk) 08:50, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks. That's it. It says, Ce parler est utilisé par les Kabyles Hadra, population de montagnards originaire des Kutamas amazighs de Petite Kabylie arabophone. (Kitouni, 2013, p. 91) ... Ces habitants, dont les descendants sont appelés Kabyles hadra, appartenaient à la tribu Sanhadja Branès et étaient intégrés à la confédération des Bavares. ... les habitants de cette région, communément appelés les Kabyles hadra, descendent directement de la tribu berbère des Kutamas. Andre🚐 21:01, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1. Option 2 would be a complete WP:V fail, as none of the sources provided in the discussion above support the claim that the French "invented" the term. If there are additional sources that support this claim, I hope editors can provide them.Katzrockso (talk) 07:08, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  Since the term was gallicized and given a new meaning (this is sourced). How would you describe it (short of writing the whole sentence)? M.Bitton (talk) 13:15, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  I saw that Gallicized was sourced, not that "given a new meaning was". Can you clarify with a direct quote? @M.Bitton Katzrockso (talk) 17:08, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  @Katzrockso: please see quotes 1, 3 and 4 in this comment (in the Ktouni section). What's in number 1 (the fact that the locals used the word "Kabaile" to simply mean tribes) can easily be attributed to many RS. I can also cite RS that say that the French used the word "Kabyle" to mean different things at different times (first to refer to mountain dwellers, then to refer to Berber speakers and later to refer to those we know today as Kabyle people). In quote 3, there is what Marmol said, i.e., that the term was used to designate the Arabs "who reside in the cities" (not mountains) and who were "commonly called Hadara". In quote number 4 you'll also notice the word "Moor" (that the French used haphazardly after dividing the local population into groups). M.Bitton (talk) 18:58, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  I read that comment already. The quotes 1, 3, 4 in that comment do not support the claim "given a new meaning". Katzrockso (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  They do. "Kabaile" simply meant tribe, and according to Marmol, "Kabaile el Hadara" meant Arabs who lived the cities. the French Gallicized the word "Kabaile" into Kabyle and assigned a new meaning to it (to refer to the mountain dwellers). This is what the cited sources say.

  They then changed it to refer to Berber people throughout the Maghreb before finally assigning it to Kabyle people (this is common knowledge and easily sourced). M.Bitton (talk) 19:43, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  This is SYNTH - you are taking a series of descriptions of usage (what the term at one point and with one transliteration was used to describe) and interpreting it with the lens "gave new meaning". You could make a great argument in a blog post, but not on Wikipedia. Katzrockso (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

  I tend to read the sources and not the sentences, but like I said above, I understand if what is clear to me isn't clear to the others and I see no point in discussing it further. The only thing I'll add is that in hindsight, "coined" would have been a more appropriate description.

  Would you mind !voting in the RM (which will make this issue moot)? Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 20:32, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm just responding to a few remarks from Mr. Bitton.

• As my answer here indicates, the shift of the word Qbail/Kabyle from a simple tribal signifier to an ethnic one is an acquisition that predates colonization (dating back to the medieval period).
• The term Kabyle/Kabail Hadara is not simply a meaning of "tribe" but an ethnographic entity predating the arrival of the French, as it is mentioned under Marmol... Demeurait alors une vieille entité, berceau d'une longue et tumultueuse histoire, singularité culturelle et ethnographique surnommée « Kabaile El Had'ra ». Ensemble de trente tribus, occupant un territoire compris entre Collo et Jijel, Marsa Zitoun et Bni Haroun que Marmol, au XVIIe siècle, décrivait ainsi [...] . Monsieur Patillo (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

"singularité culturelle et ethnographique » applies to all "Kabaile [whatever]", but the meaning that was given to it by the French was new. Also, Marmol said that it was used to designate the Arabs "who reside in the cities of Africa [and who] are commonly called Hadara, that is to say, [urbanized] courtiers, and are mostly involved in trade [commerce]". M.Bitton (talk) 13:15, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

no because Kitouni p.10 says singularité culturelle et ethnographique is nicknamed Kabaile El Had'ra, not to all "Kabaile [whatever]" as you say. To convince you, he then goes on to say that these are tribes between Collo and Jijel (Kitouni : Ensemble de trente tribus, occupant un territoire compris entre Collo et Jijel)... you know very well that this doesn't encompass all of Kabylia...

What is new is the term Kabylie Orientale (Eastern Kabylia) in contrast to Hadara, which is an old entity... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

That has to be the least convincing argument I have read in a while. Did you actually read what I wrote? M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Gentlemen, stop fighting in the war room. We know that Bitton and Patillo stand opposed. Let's AGF that both are reading each others' arguments but simply aren't moved by them due to their preexisting strong feelings in in relation to the Berber and Arab relations of the Maghreb. That is OK just let's try not to be so snippy and repetitive. Just state your opinion and let them fall where they may. Andre🚐 19:21, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

COMMONNAME would support whichever one has the most currency in RS. I do not get many for the current title. "Kabaile El Had'ra" seems to have more. Andre🚐 19:16, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@AndreJustAndre can you list which RS use one form or the other? I didn't find very much of a difference when I looked, so I am skeptical we can meaningfully decide a "common name". Katzrockso (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Since there is almost no difference in spelling between "Kabaile el Hadra" and "Kabaile El Had'ra", we just choose the one that gets more hits overall (i.e., the first one). M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

More hits in Google searches can result from the same source being indexed on a number of different websites. There are a number of other criterion in WP:CRITERIA. Katzrockso (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

True and I honestly don't mind which of the two names ("Kabaile el Hadra" and "Kabaile El Had'ra") with a negligible difference in spelling gets chosen. M.Bitton (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I agree that the difference is negligible, Katzrockso, but "Kabaile El Had’ra" is used by Kitouni [11][12] and Matmati [13] Andre🚐 21:17, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

References

Requested move 22 December 2025

Kabyles hadra → Kabaile al-Hadra – "Kabaile al-Hadra" is the WP:COMMONAME. While the subject is non-notable, the few sources that refer to it in Google search, Google books and Scholar are more numerous for this name (or one of its variants, such as Kabaile el Hadra) than the one currently used. Being precise and less prone to misinterpretation, it also has the added benefit of making the above issue of the Gallicised term moot. M.Bitton (talk) 13:18, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Notifying all those who participated in the above RfC. AndreJustAndre, Skitash, Katzrockso and Monsieur Patillo. M.Bitton (talk) 13:19, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. I also support Kabaile el Hadra (while there isn't much difference between the two, the latter gets more hits). M.Bitton (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2025 (UTC)
• Against I disagree with it both in substance and in form. Substantively, there are conventions for titles like WP:UCRN and WP:CRITERIA. For Kabaile al-Hadra, there are no results on Google Books, whereas the current form "Kabyle hadra" allows one to find sources related to the subject. [14]. The first sentence already contains a common alternative, "Kabyles el Hadra," so playing with romanization adds nothing. I don't understand the form of this request, given that the RFC is in progress. As the arguments above on the alleged invention by the French of this concept are contradicted by the sources. The romanizations between Qabail, Kabail, Kabyle, etc., although they are alternative forms, are now well established and indisputable in English (via French): Kabyle. The standardized spelling applies to the description of the ethnic group before colonization (in articles about the Turkish period, academics speak of Kabyles and Kabyles Hadara, not Kabail or Qabail...).Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:19, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

There are no results whatsoever for either "Kabyles hadra" or "Kabyle hadra" in Google books and one result for "Kabaile El Had'ra". Also, whereas "Kabaile el Hadra" gets 1810 hits in Google search, "Kabyles hadra" gets 216. The results speak for themselves. M.Bitton (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

"Kabyle Hadra" : [15] and "Kabaile el Hadra" (none) : [16] ... You need to search with the exact expression, otherwise "hadra" will give you results... for other expressions. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

As well as I what said regarding the variant "Kabaile El Had'ra", I will repeat the very important information (so that it doesn't get lost): "Kabaile el Hadra" gets 1810 hits in Google search, while "Kabyles hadra" (the current title) gets 216. M.Bitton (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Shouldn't the common name therefore be Kabaile el Hadra, not Kabaile al-Hadra? Andre🚐 19:00, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't see why not. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, IMHO, you should adjust the RM to the name that has the results, I am getting very few for other variants. Andre🚐 19:14, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome to adjust it if you think it's necessary, but I don't think it is since editors can support "Kabaile el Hadra" or adjust their !vote (like I did). M.Bitton (talk) 20:34, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

The source to which you referred on p.37 uses "Kabyles hadra", this is also the case for Morizot.

If I follow Mr. Bitton's argument (since he splits Kabylia in two), we should also rename the Kabyle to "Kabaile En-nighass"... Archaic transcriptions of endonyms do not constitute titles and are only mentioned in the text or in footnotes for historical purposes. Here, Kitouni explains the process p.14 (« K'baile » devenant ensuite par glissement imperceptible « Kabile » pour être enfin francisé en Kabyle, Kabylie, etc...) Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:20, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I didn't split anything. Kabylia was coined by the French, but that's another story. We won't rename Kabyle because that's the common name for Kabyle people (the why is another story). M.Bitton (talk) 20:25, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

What is the most common name outside of WP:NONENG sources? Yes, I see Kabyles used in that one, but it's all in French. Andre🚐 21:00, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Kabaile el Hadra is the most common name. M.Bitton (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

M.Biton. Which source treats the Kabyle or Kabaile spelling differently when referring to Berber-speaking (nighas) and Arabic-speaking (hadra) Kabyles? Which source calls some (Arabic speakers/Hadara) Kabailes, and others (Berber speakers) Kabyles? Because in the end, that's what you're proposing, even though the authors treat these two groups the same spelling every time (either they call them Cabaile, Kabaile, or Kbail, or Kabyles, etc...) and the standard spelling is Kabyle in European languages ​​(and in English). University theses in Algeria use "Kabyle" (including for hadara/oriental/Arabic speakers) and not Kabaile, as you know. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. M.Bitton (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

It is one part of the article titling policy and suggests weighing factors/criteria against each other.

WP:CONSISTENT is also a criteria (which is how I am understanding @Monsieur Patillo's argument). Katzrockso (talk) 21:38, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

They claim that playing with romanization adds nothing, yet, there is a debate in the above discussion (over an apostrophe). M.Bitton (talk) 21:44, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

If I refer to Andre's sources above, they have the same pair: Kabaile (or Kbaïl) El Had'ra/Kabaile (or Kbaïl) En-nighass.

Kitouni: In local tradition, the name used to designate the populations of North Constantine seems to have been "Kabaile El Had'ra," as opposed to the Berber-speaking "Kabaile En-nighass" or simply "Kabaile" of the Djurdjura Mountains.

Matmati : The appropriation by the populations of Little Kabylia of certain customs of urban life in their daily routines and social interactions gave rise to the term "Kbaïl El-hadra," which can be translated, or is translated, as "civilized" Kabylia. It is also this "new" language that primarily distinguishes the two Kabylias, "Greater" and "Little." The inhabitants of "Greater" Kabylia, although they adopted Islam, retained Berber as their language, hence the term "Kbaïl ennighas" ​​or "authentic/original Kabyle".

My only suggestion is to avoid any renaming but to insert them in the introduction. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Nope. We don't ignore the common name just because one disagrees with it. M.Bitton (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

« the common name » : The romanization changes between Matmati and Kitouni... so it's not that common. And we should rename Kabyle people to Kabail/Kbail Nighass... it's endless. Sorry, but I'm not convinced. A writing style like The Kabyles Hadra or Kabyles el Hadra would be more helpful to the reader... objectively. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I disagree. We have a common name: "Kabaile el Hadra" or "Kabaile El Had’ra" (not much difference between the two).

I guess it comes down to a simple choice: if you want people to find this non-notable article, then you'd support the precise common name. If, on the other hand, you're after something else, then please tell us what it is. M.Bitton (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

The reader will find it much easier to understand with the "Kabyle" form than with the orientalizing "Kabaile" form... Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I disagree. As well as not being the common name (this is getting tiring), Kabyle is highly misleading as it refers to Kabyle people (you know, the Berber speaking people). M.Bitton (talk) 22:18, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

those very same people that Kitouni calls... "Kabaile En-nighass". Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

"Kabaile En-nighass" were different (they led different lives and even spoke a different language). M.Bitton (talk) 22:29, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

What's the point of initiating a RM for an article you believe isn't notable? The proper response would be to take the article to AfD, not initiate a RM. Katzrockso (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Do you believe it's notable? M.Bitton (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Not sure, I haven't evaluated the totality of the sources here, but I would learn more towards this topic being notable than non-notable based on what I have seen. Katzrockso (talk) 22:58, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Google search results indicate that "Kabaile el Hadra" is far more common than the current title. Skitash (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

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