One of the hot issues of the moment in SGA fandom seems to be genderswap. It's something that turns up in fic all over the place (almost always men turning into women, interestingly), and while it can be totally fascinating to read (if done well), it's also a subject that often gets mired in horrible out-dated stereotypes. So, herewith, I offer:
Three Things I Wish People Would Bear In Mind When Writing Genderswap
1. An adult male suddenly turned female by magic or technology is not a woman; he is a man trapped in a woman's body.
I'd think this would be obvious, but apparently it isn't. The analogy shouldn't be "woman", but something more like "female-to-male transsexual", really - the individual in question identifies as male, and has done so for their whole lifetime; gender identity is generally quite fundamental to the way we are socialised, and changing it is notoriously difficult. Take transsexual and transgendered individuals; they're born into one sort of body, but their gender identity is different, and remains different, despite the huge amount of hassle involved in maintaining it. Look at the lives of people like Brandon Teena, or films like Boys Don't Cry, The Crying Game, and the recent Transamerica. The hypothetical changed character has even more reason to identify with a gender different from their new biological sex, with several decades of conventional socialisation behind them - so why have them immediately (or rapidly) switch, using female pronouns, identifying as a woman, wearing girly clothes and makeup?
NB: I'm not saying that no one could ever transition; it could happen. But it wouldn't be quick or easy, and it would require an awful lot of re-evaluation.
2. Stereotypical images of femininity are not actually genetically linked
As someone who identifies as female but doesn't generally present as feminine, I get a bit touchy when I read a story which suggests that becoming female inevitably makes the character want to wear makeup, shave various body parts, wear skirts and tights (sorry, I mean "pantyhose") and generally do lots of things I don't do. These aren't inherent elements of being female - they're stereotypes! Not even all women bother with them. So why would a man want to do so?
Why are they never butch? Why don't they wear unisex clothing? Why don't they keep their hair short? All these things are perfectly acceptable for people in female bodies, and would surely feel much more "natural" to people who are used to being in male bodies. If you almost always wear trousers and shirts, then skirts feel weird; so do halternecks and other strappy tops. High heels - even very small ones - are difficult to walk in unless you have practice. I know all this from personal experience *g*. Most straight men suddenly finding themselves in female bodies are going to have similar unfamiliarity, and probably aren't going to want to bother making themselves look feminine - they're still men, after all.
NB: Transvestism, "drag", and similar situations are different; there, a man is deliberately performing femininity, and may therefore choose to take on stereotypically female dress and style as part of the process. I'm talking about men who involuntarily find themselves biologically female. Similarly, if a man-turned-female decides that he wants to present as actively female for a specific reason or occasion, that's different; I'm mostly talking about everyday life. Also, bras may be a different category to most other sorts of clothes, since they serve a specialised practical purpose as well as an aesthetic one.
3. Gender is a performance, but it is also flexible
As I said earlier, it is possible to perform a gender which does not match your biological sex. You can also choose to refuse some or all aspects of your biological sex identity, accept some traditional gender-linked characteristics, and generally live whatever way makes you happiest. Even if you adjust to suddenly ending up biologically a woman, and wear female clothes, you don't also have to wear makeup, watch romantic comedies and shave all your body hair. Mixing and matching is perfectly acceptable behaviour *g*. This is probably the most likely outcome, too; someone who ends up switched will take on some characteristics of the new sex, as well as retaining large sections of the former identity.
...there's lots more one could say, but I've spent too long on this already. Just to finish up, some SGA genderswap stories:
The World According to Rover by Orithain and Rina - Becoming female immediately causes the men to grow long hair and fingernails, as well as adopt more female (in fact, girly) body-language and mannerisms. There's some decent stuff about sexuality and orientation, but the female / male categories are exceptionally stereotypical, and for no obvious reason that I can see. The long hair thing, in particular, felt completely unnecessary and added nothing to the story.
Ardhanarishvara by
auburnnotlisa - Teyla has a lot of trouble with the transition, which is good. But John, particularly, starts out having a lot of trouble accepting his change, while simultaneously using female pronouns about himself, right from the time the change happens. I couldn't see why he would make such a fundamental change in his self-image so quickly, particularly since he was bothered by it. I had less trouble with Ronon, since he seemed to accept it quite readily.
At the Violet Hour by
linaerys - John turns female and no one notices, at least at first. No dramatic changes, which was interesting, John still thinks of himself as, essentially, male, and carries on with his life.
A Female Thing by TMar - This was actually pretty good. John continues to use male pronouns and thinks of himself as a man; he adapts reasonably well to his new body, deals with the assorted reactions of those around him, and generally finds a credible middle ground. He does dress up as a woman a few times; I felt it went a bit far, but he did it for a specific reason, and it was clearly John choosing to perform femininity at a specific occasion, rather than "being a girl". I particularly liked the fact that he insisted on flat shoes *g*.
Human Vacillation by
trinityofone - An interesting one. John had clearly made a total transition, but he'd had twenty-odd years to do it in, and changed early enough that I found it not too incredible. This is unusual in that rather than the normal "man has to learn to be a woman" trope, it's "woman has learned to be a man", and we don't see the process involved. I'm still not sure that John would have become so thoroughly male, but I can just about buy it.
You're Pretty Good Looking (For a Girl) by
trinityofone - Again, interesting; I like the balance between Rodney's masculinity and his new body, the middle ground he finds; I felt that the issues of his orientation were (unusually in a genderswap story) somewhat elided, but there was examination of related issues. Um. This is also different because it's bodyswap and not genderswap, so the issues of "passing" and changing clothing and so on are not quite the same; Cadman's body is female, and dressed and treated as such, so that's the baseline Rodney is dealing with, rather than a body which has previously been male.
Basically: Genderswap can be great, and people write it for all sorts of reasons. But I wish people would think more about the concepts of gender they use; femininity and masculinity are not monolithic categories, and there's no reason to assume that any given individual - especially one not socialised in a particular gender - would buy into the stereotypes wholesale. Everyone should read more about transsexuals and less Cosmo or GQ! That would be cool, yes.
Three Things I Wish People Would Bear In Mind When Writing Genderswap
1. An adult male suddenly turned female by magic or technology is not a woman; he is a man trapped in a woman's body.
I'd think this would be obvious, but apparently it isn't. The analogy shouldn't be "woman", but something more like "female-to-male transsexual", really - the individual in question identifies as male, and has done so for their whole lifetime; gender identity is generally quite fundamental to the way we are socialised, and changing it is notoriously difficult. Take transsexual and transgendered individuals; they're born into one sort of body, but their gender identity is different, and remains different, despite the huge amount of hassle involved in maintaining it. Look at the lives of people like Brandon Teena, or films like Boys Don't Cry, The Crying Game, and the recent Transamerica. The hypothetical changed character has even more reason to identify with a gender different from their new biological sex, with several decades of conventional socialisation behind them - so why have them immediately (or rapidly) switch, using female pronouns, identifying as a woman, wearing girly clothes and makeup?
NB: I'm not saying that no one could ever transition; it could happen. But it wouldn't be quick or easy, and it would require an awful lot of re-evaluation.
2. Stereotypical images of femininity are not actually genetically linked
As someone who identifies as female but doesn't generally present as feminine, I get a bit touchy when I read a story which suggests that becoming female inevitably makes the character want to wear makeup, shave various body parts, wear skirts and tights (sorry, I mean "pantyhose") and generally do lots of things I don't do. These aren't inherent elements of being female - they're stereotypes! Not even all women bother with them. So why would a man want to do so?
Why are they never butch? Why don't they wear unisex clothing? Why don't they keep their hair short? All these things are perfectly acceptable for people in female bodies, and would surely feel much more "natural" to people who are used to being in male bodies. If you almost always wear trousers and shirts, then skirts feel weird; so do halternecks and other strappy tops. High heels - even very small ones - are difficult to walk in unless you have practice. I know all this from personal experience *g*. Most straight men suddenly finding themselves in female bodies are going to have similar unfamiliarity, and probably aren't going to want to bother making themselves look feminine - they're still men, after all.
NB: Transvestism, "drag", and similar situations are different; there, a man is deliberately performing femininity, and may therefore choose to take on stereotypically female dress and style as part of the process. I'm talking about men who involuntarily find themselves biologically female. Similarly, if a man-turned-female decides that he wants to present as actively female for a specific reason or occasion, that's different; I'm mostly talking about everyday life. Also, bras may be a different category to most other sorts of clothes, since they serve a specialised practical purpose as well as an aesthetic one.
3. Gender is a performance, but it is also flexible
As I said earlier, it is possible to perform a gender which does not match your biological sex. You can also choose to refuse some or all aspects of your biological sex identity, accept some traditional gender-linked characteristics, and generally live whatever way makes you happiest. Even if you adjust to suddenly ending up biologically a woman, and wear female clothes, you don't also have to wear makeup, watch romantic comedies and shave all your body hair. Mixing and matching is perfectly acceptable behaviour *g*. This is probably the most likely outcome, too; someone who ends up switched will take on some characteristics of the new sex, as well as retaining large sections of the former identity.
...there's lots more one could say, but I've spent too long on this already. Just to finish up, some SGA genderswap stories:
The World According to Rover by Orithain and Rina - Becoming female immediately causes the men to grow long hair and fingernails, as well as adopt more female (in fact, girly) body-language and mannerisms. There's some decent stuff about sexuality and orientation, but the female / male categories are exceptionally stereotypical, and for no obvious reason that I can see. The long hair thing, in particular, felt completely unnecessary and added nothing to the story.
Ardhanarishvara by
At the Violet Hour by
A Female Thing by TMar - This was actually pretty good. John continues to use male pronouns and thinks of himself as a man; he adapts reasonably well to his new body, deals with the assorted reactions of those around him, and generally finds a credible middle ground. He does dress up as a woman a few times; I felt it went a bit far, but he did it for a specific reason, and it was clearly John choosing to perform femininity at a specific occasion, rather than "being a girl". I particularly liked the fact that he insisted on flat shoes *g*.
Human Vacillation by
You're Pretty Good Looking (For a Girl) by
Basically: Genderswap can be great, and people write it for all sorts of reasons. But I wish people would think more about the concepts of gender they use; femininity and masculinity are not monolithic categories, and there's no reason to assume that any given individual - especially one not socialised in a particular gender - would buy into the stereotypes wholesale. Everyone should read more about transsexuals and less Cosmo or GQ! That would be cool, yes.
no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 12:09 am (UTC)Honestly, I've been so out of SGA fandom on the whole that I have no idea what's hot and what's not (and my gripe of the day is being severely PO'd b/c someone didn't spoiler-cut appropriately on
To be honest, I find myself just as happy to stay out of prime fandom and stick to recs unless I've really got time to slot; it's just easier that way. [/half-assed-soapbox]
Honestly? I probably just need to get some sleep so my brain will start working again.
Also: I remember running into a Sheppard/Weir Duet-takeoff that was genderswap-but-not. (I also recently read a Hermione/Snape body swap fic that wasn't nearly as bad as one would presume from the summary, which addressed some of the genderswap issues nicely).
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Date: 2007-01-15 12:12 am (UTC)(and aww on the spoiler thing, I hate it when that happens)
Also: I remember running into a Sheppard/Weir Duet-takeoff that was genderswap-but-not
Sounds interesting. Let me know if you find the link?
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Date: 2007-01-15 12:21 am (UTC)I've taken a look at "You're Pretty Good Looking (For A Girl)" and found it a good read, even though I've never seen SGA before. Hopefully I will be able to think of some insightful cross-fandom comparisons tomorrow, when I'm more awake. Well, we'll see. But I've definitely enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject.
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Date: 2007-01-15 12:58 am (UTC)And I await your thoughts with interest! :)
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Date: 2007-01-15 01:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2007-01-15 12:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 01:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 12:33 am (UTC)I think he also got a hand with the maleness by going into the military AFTER that happened. :)
And now I'm going to use a totally inappropriate icon.
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Date: 2007-01-15 01:03 am (UTC)Yeah, I did think of that; I remember the discussions, and some talk about ways in which John codes as female. I was going to mention it in my post here, but then I sort of ran out of energy *g*. But you're right; that side of the character definitely makes the situation more plausible.
I think he also got a hand with the maleness by going into the military AFTER that happened. :)
Good point! He's had more explicit training in performing masculinity than most people *g*. And more need to use it, too, I would guess, even in the Air Force.
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Date: 2007-01-15 02:57 am (UTC)Thank you for reiterating that key point that always seems to get lost: that biological sex and behaviors of gender are not the same thing. Heavens forfend, because six months out of the year (the winter ones) I do not shave my legs, and I would really hate to think that makes me a man.
I particularly liked the fact that he insisted on flat shoes *g*.
I should hope so! He's the tallest person there already. In heels he would be the Kareem Abdul Jabbar of Atlantis.
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Date: 2007-01-15 11:13 am (UTC)Of course! I should have thought of that. Though I've not seen the episode in question, and in any case it's so short-term that the sort of issues I was thinking of don't come up so much.
Heavens forfend, because six months out of the year (the winter ones) I do not shave my legs, and I would really hate to think that makes me a man.
Ahahaha. Yes, exactly.
In heels he would be the Kareem Abdul Jabbar of Atlantis.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar... with a broken ankle, probably *g*.
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Date: 2007-01-15 03:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 11:15 am (UTC)Which is interesting, really, isn't it? We real women aren't female enough to match the fictional women with whom we are presented... and so some of us write men-becoming-women who can manage it? Femininity is a fraught category, anyway, and I'm not sure it's really possible for a single woman to meet all the "criteria"...
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Date: 2007-01-15 03:34 am (UTC)Why do we turn John, Rodney and co. into not just girls, but über!females? I think it could be a way for us to examine that feminity, to live the stereotype through someone we may feel closer to (the person caught in a social role they are not really equipped for). Maybe it's a way to examine that, yes, those behaviors are weird and feel unnatural, but we do them anyway... because it's what we think society expects from the body involved?
Honestly, I have no idea either way. Gender often confuses the hell out of me. I don't adhere to the general expectations, except when I do, with no detectable pattern to either.
And, I mean, there's the genetic, there's primary and secondary gender attributes, there's social gender identity, roles, stereotypes, and with all of that, we come up with a binary category to press it all in? Just black and white? I will never understand how that works.
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Date: 2007-01-15 11:27 am (UTC)That's an interesting hypothesis. It's actually one of the things that frustrates me - fandom is a place full of women who aren't terribly feminine, or who dislike / distrust / reject the stereotypes with which we are presented, so I expect better from us than to reinscribe the same old problems on the newly female bodies about which we write. Obviously I'm being naive *g*.
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-04-15 12:38 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: What about where they are?
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Date: 2007-01-15 10:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 11:32 am (UTC)Yeah, I have that. I understand that sometimes people just want to have fun with the idea, and that's ok - I'm not going to read it, but, whatever, that's their choice. What I'm complaining about more are the more serious stories, where typically the writer will examine issues of sexuality in some detail, but completely ignore gender; the character agonises endlessly over whether X will still like them in the new body, and over whether they are now straight or gay, and the dangers of pregnancy... but simultaneously drops right into the stereotypes of the new gender category without, apparently, any thought.
although I really liked the way Cadman dealt with becoming a man, it skipped right over the fact that she's just effectively lost fifteen-odd years of her life too
I thought about that while I was reading! The story does mention that Cadman's having trouble getting her new older body to the state of fitness her own had been in, but that's about it. Must be a bit of a shock (although perhaps less unexpected for someone living in a place with so many Wraith attacks, admittedly; suddenly aging isn't exactly unknown in Atlantis...)
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Date: 2007-01-15 01:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-15 02:30 pm (UTC)I'm not saying people don't or couldn't adjust. But I'm not convinced that most people are flexible enough in their gender to completely switch their self-image "after a day or two", let alone snap straight into stereotypes which don't match the experience of the women around them, let alone their own.
Pronouns aren't an issue - I use first person gender neutral pronouns for myself ("I") and anything the author wishes to do beyond that is stylistic.
Stylistic, yes, but using pronouns which match the new biology is sending a definite message about how the character is seeing the change - and if the character is thinking (in close third) of "she" and "her" when whoever it is was male until a couple of hours previously, that tells me that the individual has made some pretty big adjustments already. You can't dismiss it as a purely stylistic feature when it's so central to what the story is about.
Also, if I was switched into a female body, I would almost certainly do a few very feminine things for a little while - not because I have the slightest wish to become feminine so much as because it is something I would have the opportunity to do that had never been practical before and (hopefully) never would be again.
Yeah, and I'm not complaining about, for instance, the number of gender-switched characters who go straight for having sex *g*. But could you see yourself immediately - as in, within two or three days - waxing your legs and bikini line, wearing thongs and high heels, and painting your toenails bright red? As far as I'm aware, most women wouldn't bother with that when there wasn't someone around to impress with it, let alone doing so in a warzone staffed by the military and scientists working for them, and when we're talking about people who were fairly slobby straight males? You would have to convince me that this would be in-character for them before I'd buy it.
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Date: 2007-01-16 12:45 am (UTC)Yes. Just, yes. Thank you.
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Date: 2007-01-16 01:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 12:46 am (UTC)I have sometimes been tempted to cram a copy of My Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein down certain authors' throats. (Actually a reader for authors interested in making their genderswap more intelligent might be a good idea. Bornstein, Feinberg, Emma Bull's Bone Dance... what else?)
A further thing: (one that 'Ardhanarishvara' got right) not everyone is equally attached to their gender-identity. For some people it's a huge component of their identity, for others it's... not.
And another: androgyny does not have to look like that Star Trek race. It doesn't have to be less-than-either, it can be more-than-either, or just plain other.
And another: OMG, if people don't stop writing stories with the surprise twist that one of the main characters is trans (usually FTM) and not doing any research and hence getting everything wrong, from pronouns to words like 'really a...' or 'used to be a...' to coming out down to details of the transition itself and fucking surgical details, I will go on a rampage. *breathes* Modern surgery can *not* create a functional male member, and they could find that out with two seconds of Googling. And it's even worse when they put in the author's notes that they haven't done any research, so they apologise for any mistakes.
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Date: 2007-01-16 01:30 am (UTC)But yes. There's lots of great information about gender on the Internet, and it's not at all hard to find.
not everyone is equally attached to their gender-identity. For some people it's a huge component of their identity, for others it's... not
Definitely. I should probably have made more of a point of that in my post, but I was mostly thinking about John and Rodney, who are both definitely male-identified *g*. I liked that in Ardhanarishvara it was Teyla who had the most trouble, though; that was unexpected, but pleasing.
And, yeah, don't even talk to me about pronoun misuse *g*. I suspect that part of the problem is that trans people are so nearly invisible to most of society - unless we go looking, most of us don't know anything about being trans, even enough to understand that "really a..." is offensive.
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-05-19 07:01 pm (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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Date: 2007-01-16 03:17 am (UTC)Anyway! Yes. There should be more interesting fic about sex and gender and less sucky fic. I decree it!
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Date: 2007-01-16 10:21 am (UTC)It is such an interesting idea to play with, yet it's almost always done horribly and it really weirds me out how both it and mpreg are so often used as a way to "punish" men.
Yes.
Actually it would be funny if that happened and the guy was like "Damn, is this what you all go through?" and one of the female cast members was like "Actually, I've never had menstrual cramps a day in my life."
Heh, that would be great!
Anyway! Yes. There should be more interesting fic about sex and gender and less sucky fic. I decree it!
*approves of your decree*
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Date: 2007-01-16 03:17 am (UTC)I read an otherwise excellent story in which John wakes up a girl and instantly feels a compulsion to shave his legs.
Now, I have been a female human being for twenty-two years (alright, my whole life) and apparently my deep biological compulsion to shave my legs has yet to kick in.
Many things about genderswap fiction are quite compelling (I love
no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 10:23 am (UTC)Heh. Mine too! Life would be a lot easier if I actually wanted to do the stuff I was supposed to do, though.
the general scrambling of nature vs. nurture irritates me quite a bit
Yeah. The treatment of female sexuality tends to be one of the better things in this sort of fic, I find, but as you said, people seem to assume that so much of femininity is somehow innate, and it's really really not...
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Date: 2007-01-16 04:16 am (UTC)I have enjoyed genderswap fics where the character was *born* the opposite sex, but that's not really the same thing.
The thing that makes me hit the backbutton without hesitation is when the newly-female character suddenly has long hair. I know the Victorians (and many in the 1950s) saw women's hair as some kind of secondary sexual characteristic, but anyone who's been on the planet after 1967 or so should have got over that!
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Date: 2007-01-16 10:26 am (UTC)Yes. I find that sort of story much less problematic, because if they're born that way, no one is going to start stressing all the changes from the canon character. It's a whole other ball-game (uh, no pun intended).
The thing that makes me hit the backbutton without hesitation is when the newly-female character suddenly has long hair. I know the Victorians (and many in the 1950s) saw women's hair as some kind of secondary sexual characteristic, but anyone who's been on the planet after 1967 or so should have got over that!
I really, really hate that. It just - it makes no sense! I can't imagine that anyone in a modern Western society doesn't know plenty of short-haired women and long-haired men. And as someone who has had short hair for all but about six months of my life, I feel fairly sure that it's not actually an integral element of femininity.
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Date: 2007-01-16 06:48 am (UTC)So I'm reading this post, thanking my lucky stars, because if my first encounter with genderswap had been anything like your general experience, I don't think I'd have read more than one story. I mean, just everything you say pings me as exactly true, to the degree where I can hardly believe that there's a need for this kind of post. Like you say, should you have to TELL people that "stereotypical images of femininity are not actually genetically linked"? No.
Well, I'd say more, but I'm genetically predisposed to day-dreaming about shopping for shoes and pretty things, so I'm going to go do that now. ;o)
Here via metafandom, btw.
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Date: 2007-01-16 10:28 am (UTC)I'm not sure if you've been lucky, or I've been unlucky! :) It gets very depressing sometimes.
Well, I'd say more, but I'm genetically predisposed to day-dreaming about shopping for shoes and pretty things, so I'm going to go do that now. ;o)
Ahahahahaha. Good luck with that *g*.
Return of the prodigal commenter
Date: 2007-01-16 09:57 am (UTC)When I started reading your post, I immediately assumed that what you meant was gender-swapping via swapping bodies, and not actually straight (so to speak) genderswap. In fact I've only encountered straight genderswap once, in a classic Star Trek story called "The Procrustean Petard" by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Unfortunately my copy of "New Voyages" (the short story collection) is at home, so I can't comment further on it, but I recall it as being interesting.
As I said above, I have read a lot of X-Files fanfic recently, and have only encountered bodyswap, in the form of Mulder and Scully finding themselves switched. As
He likes the breasts, but he misses his dick. Not like he lost it or anything, it's just...over there, with the rest of him, and from what he can tell, Scully's pretty much treating his body like a hotel room, keeping everything nice and neat and like she found it, but he wonders if she'd grant him visiting privileges if they don't make it back, or if that'd be weird. He can't even tell at this point.
There's not as much deep gender commentary in bodyswap stories, I think, or at least in Mulder/Scully bodyswap stories, because the focus is not on the gender of the body as much as it is on the specific owner of the body. Mulder wears high heels when in Scully's body not because that's what women do, but because it's what Scully does. And in fact in some stories he eventually rebels.
What I find particularly interesting is the way that certain mannerisms and habits are interpreted differently when practiced by the other gender. Mulder makes Scully's body look a bit "slutty," because he continues to lounge in chairs, sit with his legs apart, sit on the edge of desks, and refuses to wear pantyhose. (In the same story I think Scully has to force him to wear a bra!). At the same time, Scully makes Mulder's body look very aggressive and arrogant; being used to being only 5'2", she's used to standing ramrod straight, chin up, and not giving an inch, just in order to be taken seriously. Whereas Mulder, who's over six feet, always slouches a bit so as to look unthreatening. So they find themselves signalling very different things when in different bodies. And some of that, I suppose, is due to biological sex differences (ie, size) rather than gender.
Have you heard of a book called "Self-Made Man" by Nora Vincent? It's by a woman who spent a year going "undercover" as a man, and discovered an amazing amount about gender relations and about how the code of masculinity constricts male behaviour. She was a fairly butch lesbian, and felt that she wouldn't have much trouble... while she was able to pass with no trouble, she was shocked to find herself considered a very effeminate, girly man, and to really feel 'feminine' for the first time in her life. It's a fascinating read and I recommend it highly if you're interested in these sorts of issues.
Re: Return of the prodigal commenter
Date: 2007-01-16 10:03 am (UTC)"Dreamland?" by Amanda. http://krycek.gossamer.org/display.php?Dreamland.Amanda
"Flea Market Economy" by Punk Manuverability.
http://krycek.gossamer.org/display.php?FleaMarketEconomy.Maneuverability
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From:Re: Return of the prodigal commenter
From:no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 11:47 am (UTC)Everyone should read more about transsexuals and less Cosmo or GQ! That would be cool, yes.
totally, totally, totally. i wish i knew anything at all about sga, so i could read the fics and really 'get' them. as it is, your meta on them is awesome.
no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 11:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 03:01 pm (UTC)Definitely. [nodnod] I'm another female who doesn't wear skirts very often, is very casual about shaving and never wears high heels or makeup. (I didn't wear any makeup for my wedding. After that, being able to pull it out and wave it at anyone who might want to suggest that I "try" makeup makes them shut up nicely. :) I've tried it, thanks -- hate it, not wearing it.)
That said, though, I think what's appropriate behavior for the genderswapped guy depends on the type of story being written. What's it for, why is the writer writing it? What "universe" is it set in? If it's meant to be a realistic story set in some analog of the real world and/or has a lot of stuff going on that doesn't pertain to sexual activity, a non-sexual main plot, etc., then I absolutely agree that the man in a female body should behave and present more as a man unless there's a specific reason for him to behave otherwise.
But if the story is set in the sexual fantasy universe -- the same universe where doms always magically know exactly what a stranger wants and how far to push him or her, where safewords aren't needed or wanted and people kidnapped into sexual slavery come to realize that this isn't such a bad life after all -- the universe which is very much unrealistic but we don't care because the story is catering to our (or someone's) sexual fantasies, then I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone who's been a guy for thirty or forty years to suddenly want to (and know how to) wear stiletto heels and use makeup and do his hair in some elaborately sexy style and whatever all else the writer wants to throw in. If the whole point of the story is to be hot, for people who think that sort of thing is hot, then whatever caters to the fantasy is appropriate and I think we all can tell the difference between fantasy and reality well enough not to become confused about what does or should happen in the real world.
Angie
no subject
Date: 2007-01-16 03:43 pm (UTC)That said, though, I think what's appropriate behavior for the genderswapped guy depends on the type of story being written. What's it for, why is the writer writing it? What "universe" is it set in? If it's meant to be a realistic story set in some analog of the real world and/or has a lot of stuff going on that doesn't pertain to sexual activity, a non-sexual main plot, etc., then I absolutely agree that the man in a female body should behave and present more as a man unless there's a specific reason for him to behave otherwise.
Oh, definitely. Mostly I'm talking about characters on Stargate: Atlantis, which means it's a small closed community where everyone is known, a professional situation, and a setting where there is always the potential for danger, because it's essentially a war-zone. If you're writing genderswap for, I don't know, CSI or House or Desperate Housewives then a different set of rules will apply in each case.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2007-01-17 12:32 am (UTC)(It was the only way I could explain the common 'and then his hair grew really long for no reason' thing. XD)
no subject
Date: 2007-01-17 12:37 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2007-01-18 06:11 pm (UTC)I was almost planning on breaking out of my perpetual lurkerdom to rant at the genderswap stories where the genderswapped behave not like any women (since I've read mostly MTF) I know. (Bad reading experience!).
no subject
Date: 2007-01-18 06:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2007-01-19 09:28 am (UTC)Anyway, you voiced several of my concerns, because as funny and interesting a premise as it may be, there's a lot of room for it to go astray. And as I'm coming from sort of a queer theory angle, I'm a bit taken aback at some of the assumptions people make about gender and sexuality.
Although I'm starting to wonder if some of the stereotyping isn't done on purpose...as in the writer is poking fun at the way men view women, or what have you. And I'm thinking this just because it seems incredibly obvious that the fic is not trying to be realistic about the switch often (and that's just because of the crack, I suppose). But if that's sometimes the case, WHY would we (women, that is) want to stereotype ourselves??
I think I'll mull this over for a while. Oh, and do you mind if I link to you in my discussion post?
no subject
Date: 2007-01-19 10:38 am (UTC)I'm thinking this just because it seems incredibly obvious that the fic is not trying to be realistic about the switch often (and that's just because of the crack, I suppose). But if that's sometimes the case, WHY would we (women, that is) want to stereotype ourselves??
It's definitely true that a lot of genderswitch isn't interested in the serious issues involved, and quite often people seem to want to poke fun at the characters (which is probably easier to do with stereotypes?).
I think it could be a way for us to examine that feminity, to live the stereotype through someone we may feel closer to (the person caught in a social role they are not really equipped for). Maybe it's a way to examine that, yes, those behaviors are weird and feel unnatural, but we do them anyway... because it's what we think society expects from the body involved?
The idea that many of us find it hard to be "appropriately" feminine, so it can be a way to show someone else dealing with the same problems seems quite possible to me. It's certainly an intriguing idea.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-12 05:03 pm (UTC)This is a deliberate genderswap for the explicit purpose of having sex, so I think it would make sense for Character A to experiment with his female body before springing the idea on his partner. Since I'm a woman, it'll be interesting to imagine and describe what differences a male in a female body would notice. I'm mainly thinking of sensual/tactile differences (for example that the room feels suddenly much cooler), but also of how it might feel for Character A to play with bits he only knows "from the other side of a dick", so to speak. :D
no subject
Date: 2007-04-12 06:00 pm (UTC)Is there a big difference in temperature sensing? I know that some people are more heat-sensitive than others, but I didn't think it was a gender thing.
(no subject)
From:Seeing Sheppard
Date: 2007-04-14 11:25 pm (UTC)To Rodney he exchanges geeky quips; to Ronon and Teyla he fights with impressive skill, especially for someone who was a pilot all his life; to Cadwell (and I suspect much of the IOA/SGC) he is the somewhat competent slacker; to Koya he is the highly skilled gorilla who singlhandedly wiped out a small army that was occupying Atlantis....
With this "feel" of who Sheppard is I have no trouble believing that he might do something like letting everyone call him by female pronouns that he totally *doesn't* identify with
Re: Seeing Sheppard
Date: 2007-04-14 11:36 pm (UTC)But as a general thing - I don't know that I would necessarily expect him to let people call him by "wrong" pronouns, but I believe that someone could write a convincing (to me) story in which that happened.
Re: Seeing Sheppard
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-04-15 01:14 am (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 2007-04-16 08:27 pm (UTC)Also, just once I'd love to read a story where they set out to deflower the new woman and it's not all sun and roses, because the first time hurts and not ever woman has multiple orgasms you know! How about them girl problems! (I'm totally okay with the shaving thing though, because seriously, I wish more guy's would bother with it! *ugh*)
no subject
Date: 2007-04-16 08:37 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly. It can be tricky to criticise, because there's always someone who does have exactly that problem, but I do get fed-up of seeing the same things over and over and over again. And, honestly, if Rodney gets turned into a woman, is his first priority *really* going to be getting a full bikini wax and manicure? Puh-leeze.
Also, just once I'd love to read a story where they set out to deflower the new woman and it's not all sun and roses, because the first time hurts and not ever woman has multiple orgasms you know!
Hah. Yes! That would definitely make a change *g*.
(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-05-19 07:15 pm (UTC) - Expand