Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spaceflight

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Sources for the obvious thesis

Hello, I read a long time ago for an article Spacecraft electric propulsion that such engines are not suitable for takeoffs from planets due to low thrust. In general, this is a fairly obvious thesis, but I cannot find authoritative sources for it. However, for Wikipedia, all theses must be substantiated with sources, in connection with which the question is - are there sources for this thesis? Thank you in advance. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 14:13, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Comment: Yes, it might help some readers to clarify that electric propulsion (as it is described here, e.g. using ion thrusters) isn't used for the boost phase of a launch from Earth. Even though there are proposals to use other forms of electric propulsion (like electromagnetic rail guns) to launch from the surface of other planetary bodies like the Moon, that is not the focus of the article. Lacking sources for the assertion you propose adding, the best approach might be to keep the article focus on the topic of spacecraft propulsion, perhaps with a brief comment contrasting electric propulsion with the chemical propulsion used for launch vehicles. Please don't hesitate to continue developing this through discussion at Talk:Spacecraft electric propulsion. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 17:12, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you! --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 16:32, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

Proposal

I think that it would be a good idea to create a unique visual in the event of an astronaut group, the Mercury Seven for example, having all articles reach the class of Featured Article. Something along the lines of: “Astronauts adopted”, along with a kind of banner adorned with that group’s amount of Featured Article stars. QuicksmartTortoise513 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Flags in mission crew boxes

It's longstanding practice to use flags in crew infoboxes as a snappy way of informing readers which countries astronauts represent, which is useful particularly on multinational efforts like Space Station flights. However, it has been argued the use of the flag only (without the country's name) goes against MOS:FLAG, and there have been recent edits removing them entirely due to this.

My two cents: using flags is permissible in this case, since MOS:FLAG says Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams., and astronauts do represent their countries by nearly universally wearing actual flag patches. The actual flag worn also clearly takes precedence over any other nationalities the astronaut may hold, so any debates about which one(s) are correct are easily solved.

I have mixed feelings about the Accompany flags with country names part of the MOS. While I can see the accessibility benefits, it seems verbose and unnecessary, and the astronaut suits themselves rarely if ever spell out the country names. Asamboi (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Flags without names are not acceptable due to the fact that A) the flags are often too small to tell the difference between United States, Malaysia and Liberia for instance and B) Not having the country name makes them inaccessible. Additionally country flags are being used as pure decoration all over the place in fields that are not about the country. For instance in the Payload name, this isn't appropriate for a flag as the flag is not part of the payload name. For the astronaut's name, the flag is not part of the astronaut's name. Now if there are actual fields in the tables and templates for countries, and the flag with the country name then that's fine. But throwing a flag into a field that's blatantly not what the field is for and is not relevant to the field is just purely using flags for the sake of decoration. Additionally flags are being used where they're not appropriate as the person in question, or payload etc, isn't representing the country. They should only be used for country representation. A space tourist, or a satellite going up for a telecoms company, isn't representing a country. Additionally note, Wikiprojects cannot override the MOS, and wikiprojects have no ownership over pages or authority to impose decisions. Canterbury Tail talk 02:06, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

First, this discussion is specifically about Template:Spaceflight crew boxes in the body of mission articles. Flags in infoboxes or satellites or whatever is not relevant (and for what it's worth, I actually agree with you that both are bad).

Second, the field shown to the reader is "Crew", not "Name", and the current standard for that field is to list the astronaut's country (represented by the flag), their name, and how many missions they have flown, which you'll note is also not their name. These are three different things for which there is general consensus, so your argument that it should only contain the name is flatly wrong.

Last but definitely not least, you are proposing a change to hundreds of articles that have used a standard format for years, and your interpretation of MOS:FLAG is by no means the only possible one. In particular, you will note that the section "Accompany flags with country names" says should, not "must", and WP:IAR is always valid when overly literal adherence to MOS damages the encyclopedia: your deletions are stripping away not just the flags, but the important biographical footnotes attached to them.

I'm more than happy to work with you to find you to find a consensus that satisfies MOS:FLAG, like adding the country label next to the flag. But in the meantime you need to stop making unilateral edits, because I can assure you that removing country information entirely is not going to fly. Asamboi (talk) 02:37, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, here is what it looks like if you just swap the flagicon template with flag. I think we'll all agree the result is an unreadable mess, meaning we'll need to adjust the underlying template as well, but adding in an extra country parameter shouldn't be too hard. Asamboi (talk) 02:44, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

I find it curious that you’re using the Fram2 mission, as it’s the exception that largely proves the point.

Take the commander, he wore the flag of Malta on his spacesuit during the flight, but he was born in China, lives primarily in Norway and is a citizen of Malta (and Saint Kitts and Nevis) through their golden visa programs. That’s four nations he has “ties” to.

Plus he’s a space tourist… he officially represented none of those nations. RickyCourtney (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

We don't have flags for "ties". He wore the flag of Malta, the article should display the flag of Malta and list other citizenships in a footnote, as it did. (IMHO the SVG flag should not be displayed, but that's orthogonal to this debate.)

But yeah, Fram2 and private spaceflight not sponsored by national space agencies in general is more complicated, but rare. More typical cases are articles like SpaceX Crew-11 or Axiom Mission 4, where each crew member is directly sponsored by a national agency (or Axiom), and you'll note the Crew field mentions those agencies as well. Asamboi (talk) 04:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

But we do have flags for ties. In your example you had a flag for Wang's ties to Saint Kitts and Nevis. Mikkelsen wore the flag of Norway but you included the U.K. flag for her ties to that nation. There are plenty of examples on NASA astronauts too… Michael López-Alegría who grew up in the United States, worked for NASA, wore the stars and stripes on his arm during his missions, but these infoboxes include the Spanish flag too… I guess because he was born in Spain.

Then we have the European astronauts like Andreas Mogensen who is Danish, but he’s representing the ESA (all of Europe), so does he need two flags?

Even the Axiom missions are complicated. The first two missions carried tourists instead of project astronauts.

What about single nation crews like the Apollo missions. Why would we even need flags in the table? It’s an American mission, everyone knows they’re Americans.

Point is, the current situation is untenable. RickyCourtney (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Please don't attempt to confuse the issue. You justified your deletions with MOS:FLAG, not this suddenly purported concern about what countries the astronauts represent. Wikipedia has extensive policies for this (see MOS:NATIONALITY) and this supposedly "untenable" situation has, in fact, been entirely tenable to date.

I have no strong opinions either way about single-nation crews, although IMHO for consistency any program that has flown crew from multiple countries is better off listing them every time. (Which covers basically everything after Apollo or thereabouts.)

If you think we should remove all countries from all crew listings, you're welcome to propose that separately, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish and I assure you you'll get even more pushback for that. Asamboi (talk) 06:26, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail Care to weigh in here? I'm unsure of how to move forward. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

Flags are distracting, prone to nationalistic edits, often subjects of edit wars over which one should be used etc. We should just get rid of them all. As for country, we should keep country when the person in question is officially representing the country. Otherwise we shouldn't have country. And the country should be a separate field, so we're not overloading one field with confusing data. Canterbury Tail talk 18:48, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I would argue we don’t need the country as we instead share the national agency they represent (NASA, JAXA, Roscosmos, ESA, etc.) RickyCourtney (talk) 20:29, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

Re: "We should just get rid of them all", that's very much your personal opinion, not Wikipedia policy, and you'll need to create a separate proposal for that because this is not it. Asamboi (talk) 05:55, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

This isn't an RFC, editors are entitled to discuss anything relevant in this discussion. The MOS:FLAGS issue is connected to the country issue, so it's valid for editors to bring it up if they desire. There's no policy that says they can't bring it up. Canterbury Tail talk 15:42, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

If someone wears a garment issued to them by an organization, and that garment includes an insignia that represents that organization, then it makes sense for us to use that insignia when we discuss what that person does while wearing that garment. The same applies if the garment is a military uniform or a spacesuit. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 23:47, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

FYI: RickyCourtney has removed flags in tens of edits recently, citing a reason I can't find in the MOS. --mfb (talk) 00:19, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

1. MOS:FLAG says that flags should be accompanied by country names. They were not.
2. MOS:FLAGCRUFT says that flags should not be used to emphasize nationality without good reason. There is no good reason.
3. Nowhere in the instructions for Template:Spaceflight crew does it say that flags should be used within the template.

Hope that helps. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 00:38, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

1. can be fixed in the way the MOS suggests.
2. You think there is no good reason, others think otherwise. Your personal opinion is not consensus and quietly changing tons of articles without even leaving a note here is the wrong approach.
3. The template doesn't say anything about how to format its entries either way. --mfb (talk) 00:49, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

   I’d encourage a careful reread of the discussion above, particularly the comments by @Canterbury Tail, who is both an administrator and the editor who first raised the MOS:FLAG concerns. As they have noted, the current use of flags in these crew boxes does not follow MOS:FLAG and introduces avoidable accessibility and consistency issues.

   To be clear, this has not been a quiet or unilateral effort. As the thread shows, there has been sustained discussion across multiple editors over several weeks, all centered on the same core point: the flags in their current form don’t comply with MOS:FLAG, nor are they required or even mentioned in the template documentation.

   Unless there is a compelling policy-based reason to retain the existing flag format, and so far none has been presented, the appropriate next step is to bring these uses into alignment with the MOS rather than continue a long-standing but non-compliant practice.

   That said, I remain fully willing to work toward a stable, consensus-supported format if others want to propose concrete alternatives. But keeping the current usage simply because it is longstanding is not, on its own, a reason to override the MOS. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 01:13, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

There is no compelling policy-based reason to keep anything, including the crew list itself. But I think we both agree that removing the crew list would be the wrong approach. I don't mind the flags that much, but I think at the very least you could have left a note here that you changed tons of articles. --mfb (talk) 01:39, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

As the discussion above shows, there had already been extended conversation about the issue here. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 01:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

What you charitably describe as "conversation" has consisted of members of the WP spaceflight community objecting, and you ignoring those objections and continuing your one-man campaign to destroy all flags. (Canterbury Tail is providing moral support, but AFAICT is not actually removing flags.)

A concrete alternative has repeatedly been proposed: adding the country name next to the flag. However, this does not work cleanly with the existing templates and you've personally reverted my attempt to test this out, so it would require some fiddly template scripting to integrate them nicely. Asamboi (talk) 03:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

You are correct, listing the country name next to the flag does not work cleanly with the existing template.

As I said, unless there is a compelling policy-based reason to retain the existing flag format, and so far none has been presented, the appropriate next step is to bring these uses into alignment with the MOS rather than continue a long-standing but non-compliant practice. RickyCourtney (talk) 04:23, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

No, the appropriate next step is to collaboratively work out the next step instead of just deleting sourced information, as you have repeatedly done by removing the footnotes attached to the flags. You're doing this kind of vandalism elsewhere as well and you need to cease and desist, or next step will be WP:ANI. Asamboi (talk) 08:39, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

@Asamboi: Please read up on WP:NOTVAND and educate yourself on what is an is not vandalism (you've been here 22 years, you should really know all this by now.) Once you've done that, stop accusing other editors of vandalism when their edits are very clearly not vandalism. Next be aware that if something is not compliant with the MOS it can be removed. You don't get to reinsert it just because it's always been there incorrectly unless you can produce a policy reason to ignore the MOS for this one case, which no one has been able to raise. Most of the objections seem to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT or "it's always been this way", which are not valid reasons. It's been made quite clear why the flags are being removed in the current form, but no real argument to kepe them has been made. Also do be aware that Wikproject spaceflight actually has no say in this. Wikiprojects do not have the ability to impose anything to do with how an article is laid out, or come up with procedures that other editors must abide by. Wikiprojects are solely means of like minded editors coming together to edit in shared interest areas, they have zero authority or say. Canterbury Tail talk 17:20, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

For the umpteeth time: I'm objecting to RickyCourtney removing information about astronauts' nationalities, especially in cases like this where the nationality is complicated and is explained in detail in a footnote.

The Manual of Style is a manual of style. It is not a blanket authorization to remove information, namely the astronaut's nationality, that happens to currently be represented as a flag.

In short: Turning " Joseph Borg" into "Joseph Borg" when you've been repeatedly told to stop doing that is WP:VAND#Format vandalism. Turning " Joseph Borg" into "Joseph Borg, Malta" is still debatable, but it preserves information and is not vandalism. Asamboi (talk) 22:58, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Seems you still don't understand what vandalism is. Stop accusing other people of vandalism when you clearly don't understand what vandalism is (despite having been pointed to what is is and is not.) And again, no policy is being brought forward here, simply objections with no cause or real argument or supporting material. Canterbury Tail talk 02:22, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

I want to respond to this in good faith and hopefully dial down the temperature a bit.

First, it keeps being implied that I am the only person acting on this issue. That is not the case. An administrator, @Canterbury Tail, was the first to identify that the flag usage in these crew boxes violates MOS:FLAG, and they have also removed flags on several pages as part of addressing that non-compliance. This concern did not originate with me; I acted because I am an experienced editor and another experienced editor flagged a clear MOS issue.

Second, I have not been ignoring discussion or acting unilaterally. The thread above shows weeks of sustained conversation involving multiple editors, and I have paused my edits whenever those discussions have been active—as I have now.

Third, I want to emphasize that we cannot simply keep the current use of flag icons while waiting for future template changes. Even if adding country names or creating a dedicated country parameter is ultimately the preferred solution, the fact remains that the current formatting does not comply with MOS:FLAG. Longstanding practice does not override the Manual of Style.

My goal here is not to push a personal preference, but to bring the relevant articles into alignment with core MOS guidance and to work toward a consensus-supported, policy-compliant format—whatever that ends up being. I am fully open to collaborating and ultimately implementing a solution that works cleanly with the template and meets accessibility requirements.

-- RickyCourtney (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I will attempt to continue in good faith.

You keep presenting this as a flag-or-no-flag dichotomy, but it's not, since there are two intertwingled things here: a) do we indicate astronaut nationality, and if yes, b) do we use a flag to indicate that. This means there are at least four (4) potential solutions.

1. Nationality with flag only: Joseph Borg. This is the status quo.
2. Nationality with flag and country name: Malta | Joseph Borg. This seems to be the preferred approach of most participants in this chat, ideally as separate columns in a table.
3. Nationality with country name only: Joseph Borg, Malta.
4. Nationality deleted entirely. Joseph Borg. This is what you're actually doing, and what I'm objecting to.

So first we need to agree on which approach we should go with. To be #2 seems to be the obvious way forward, and there's plenty of precedent for this (eg. tables of athletes representing their countries), but if you remain adamantly opposed then we can put this up for RFC. Asamboi (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Part of the difficulty here is that the underlying concept breaks down at the edges in ways the current system simply can’t represent consistently. I’ve mentioned these examples before, but they bear repeating because they illustrate the structural problem:

• Fram2: The commander, Chun Wang, wore the Maltese flag on his spacesuit, but he was born in China, lives in Norway, and is a citizen of Malta and Saint Kitts and Nevis through golden visa programs. That’s four different nations with plausible “ties.” And as a space tourist, he didn’t officially represent any of them.
• Michael López-Alegría: He grew up in the United States, worked for NASA, wore the U.S. flag during all his NASA flights, but the crew tables also display the Spanish flag because he was born in Spain.
• ESA astronauts: Andreas Mogensen is Danish, but he flies for the European Space Agency, representing a multinational bloc. Should he get a Danish flag? An ESA flag? Both? Why treat ESA and NASA differently?
• Single-nation missions: For Apollo and other exclusively American crews, the flag icons convey no new information at all. In those cases they are decorative rather than informational—something MOS:FLAGCRUFT specifically discourages.

Additionally, this isn’t just a MOS:FLAG issue. It’s worth remembering that MOS:INFONAT, summarizing long-standing consensus on nationality in infoboxes, notes that nationality is often misinterpreted as ethnicity or cultural identity, and should generally be omitted unless directly relevant to the person’s notability.

All of this is to say: the problem isn’t that one of the four proposed approaches is “bad”—it’s that years of this status quo has shown that there are a lot of complex cases here mixing identity, representation, birthplace, citizenship, agency affiliation, and biography into tiny visual symbols.

For that reason, my view is that, no, we should not indicate astronaut nationality. MOS:INFONAT is not a perfect analogy, but it reflects a broader community sentiment that we should not place undue weight on nationality.

In contrast, there is a strong case for continuing to include the agency a professional astronaut represents:

Joseph Borg, ESA

The current template already handles this well. The difficult cases are space tourists, who don’t represent any agency, and one-off participants from small nations participating in programs like Interkosmos.

If an RfC is the next logical step, I’m more than willing to participate. My only goal is to move toward something consistent, accessible, and grounded in policy. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't understand why people think that nationality is so important. It's generally advised to be ommited on Wikipedia unless it's really important to the point being made. We have the agencies they represent, but they don't necessarily represent their nationalities. Even professional astronauts don't necessarily represent the country that is on their patch (if they wear one.) MOS:FLAG is clear, and there isn't room for interpretation. If people want to update the template to add a country then, if it can be reliably sourced, it can be added there. However this discussion doesn't actualy seem to be about country and nationality, it seems (in my opinion) to be solely about putting distracting tiny graphics in articles. Flags cause more trouble that they're worth, even if they are used according to the MOS, and it's extremely rare that thy are in any way useful other than as some jingostic exercise. They simply don't convey information well, if at all. If we think country is important, and can be sourced, then lets add the column for country. However I haven't heard a single argument that successfully supports the use of flags. Canterbury Tail talk 02:30, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

Even professional astronauts don't necessarily represent the country that is on their patch. Got an example? I genuinely don't understand what you're claiming here.

it seems (in my opinion) to be solely about putting distracting tiny graphics in articles It really isn't, and one of several hilarious things about this debate is that I'm actually a strong proponent of MOS:FLAG and remove flagcruft on a regular basis.

But answer me this: if nationality is not important, why does every astronaut ever wear their nation's flag so prominently? Just look at this guy, you couldn't make it more prominent if you tried! Asamboi (talk) 04:57, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

First up, I'm going to quote literally the first sentence of MOS:FLAG:

Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality.

Guess who "actually represents that country or nationality"? Astronauts, who wear very prominent flag patches for this very purpose.

As for your claim that "the current system simply can't represent [nationality]", we've had this exact debate before, and I'll give you exactly the same answer: this is not the problem you're claiming it is, because in the same way that the country name written on an athlete's jersey shows what country they represent, the flag the astronaut wears on their suit unequivocally shows what country they represent on that mission.

Case by case:

1. Chun Wang wore a Maltese flag, so he represents Malta. Other nationalities are a literal footnote.
2. Michael Lopez-Alegria wore a US flag, so he represented USA, and IMHO the Spanish flag should not be displayed.
3. Andreas Mogensen wears a Danish flag (it could hardly be more prominent!), so he represented Denmark (country), ESA (org). Simple.

As noted earlier, I agree we don't need flags for Apollo and earlier, but multinational crews have been the norm since Skylab/Salyut and even China's Tiangong is likely getting a Pakistani visitor in 2026.

Last and least, MOS:INFONAT is specifically about infoboxes, but these are not infoboxes. A much better analogy is MOS:SPORTFLAG, which provides detailed, battle-tested guidance on flag use for listings of team members. Asamboi (talk) 04:50, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

Astronauts

In an attempt to get adopt-an-astronaut restarted, we have have Gordon Cooper at nominated at FAC here. We need some help guys! Could some of you drop in with a review. Just a few words is all that it would take. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

In the News candidate: Shenzhou 22

Shenzhou 22 has been nominated at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#Chinese emergency space mission, and the reaction is pretty mixed so far. Please join the discussion and help improve the article. Asamboi (talk) 23:25, 26 November 2025 (UTC)