And now for a bit of controversy...
Mar. 11th, 2009 01:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
the_vultureRecently, I followed a link, presented by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
fayanora, to a discussion titled How kids in England are smeared in the press, and what to do about it. The following is a reitteration of the thoughts I presented in response to her blog entry:
Upon reading the discsussion couldn't help but reflect on my experiences teaching in England and what I observed of the children (and their parents) there.
Two general themes seemed to run through the comments, the first being a discussion of the idea that thuggery amongst British youth is worse than most other nations because of a lack of any serious consequence for poor behaviour or even proper parenting, whilst the second revolved around the ethical ramifications of corporal punishment (spanking).
Unfortunately, these discussions tended to be really simplified and only touched superficially on some of the major issues that affect British youth.
I'll start with 'spanking'. This is based on a really simple behavioural concept: if an organism is repeatedly exposed to adverse stimulus (punishment) when it performs a particular behaviour, it will 'learn' not to perform that behaviour. In fact, even the alternative parenting programs that view spanking as barbaric and abusive still use this very principle; afterall, what is making the child sit on the time out bench, other than adverse stimulus?
In practise, pain (spanking) is a pretty damn effective adverse stimulus. Whenever discussions about spanking come up, I very often hear the statement "I was spanked as a child and I turned out okay." To be frank, I often find myself tempted to echo that very sentiment. In fact, corporal punishment has been an institution in Western society for centuries and, somehow, we have yet to see the collapse of civilization into a cesspool of amoral barbarism.
Opponents of spanking, however, will site many examples where this practice has gone beyond judicious use and into the realm of abuse, either through ignorance, sheer frustration and anger, or even true malevolence. They argue that EVERYONE should be banned from employing spanking as this reduces the risk of potential physical abuse.
Their arguments have merit; afterall, there are alternative negative stimuli to spanking, ranging from time outs, to groundings, to withdrawal of priviledges. The only problem is that these require far more of the parent than spanking does, ranging from a much better grounding in parenting theory, patience, time, and emotional strength. Unfortunately, not every set of parents is capable of employing these techniques effectively (I'll leave the argument for whether everyone should be allowed to be a parent for another time). So, just as allowing corporal punishment opens up a section of the population to possible physical abuse, banning it opens up the possiblity of sociological abuse, where a child with such a complete lack of any sense of consequence that they cannot integrate into modern society as adults and, instead, become a menace (often a serious physical variety) to those around them. In otherwords, they are raised to be criminals. Proponents of alternative parenting strategies have yet to come up with any practically applicable solutions to this issue. Essentially, banning spanking has removed one problem, only to replace it with another just as serious (if not possibly more so).
Of course, there are other contributing factors to the issues with British youth, but I'll leave those for another time.
What are your thoughts on the controversy surrounding the issues presented here?
fayanora, to a discussion titled How kids in England are smeared in the press, and what to do about it. The following is a reitteration of the thoughts I presented in response to her blog entry: Upon reading the discsussion couldn't help but reflect on my experiences teaching in England and what I observed of the children (and their parents) there.
Two general themes seemed to run through the comments, the first being a discussion of the idea that thuggery amongst British youth is worse than most other nations because of a lack of any serious consequence for poor behaviour or even proper parenting, whilst the second revolved around the ethical ramifications of corporal punishment (spanking).
Unfortunately, these discussions tended to be really simplified and only touched superficially on some of the major issues that affect British youth.
I'll start with 'spanking'. This is based on a really simple behavioural concept: if an organism is repeatedly exposed to adverse stimulus (punishment) when it performs a particular behaviour, it will 'learn' not to perform that behaviour. In fact, even the alternative parenting programs that view spanking as barbaric and abusive still use this very principle; afterall, what is making the child sit on the time out bench, other than adverse stimulus?
In practise, pain (spanking) is a pretty damn effective adverse stimulus. Whenever discussions about spanking come up, I very often hear the statement "I was spanked as a child and I turned out okay." To be frank, I often find myself tempted to echo that very sentiment. In fact, corporal punishment has been an institution in Western society for centuries and, somehow, we have yet to see the collapse of civilization into a cesspool of amoral barbarism.
Opponents of spanking, however, will site many examples where this practice has gone beyond judicious use and into the realm of abuse, either through ignorance, sheer frustration and anger, or even true malevolence. They argue that EVERYONE should be banned from employing spanking as this reduces the risk of potential physical abuse.
Their arguments have merit; afterall, there are alternative negative stimuli to spanking, ranging from time outs, to groundings, to withdrawal of priviledges. The only problem is that these require far more of the parent than spanking does, ranging from a much better grounding in parenting theory, patience, time, and emotional strength. Unfortunately, not every set of parents is capable of employing these techniques effectively (I'll leave the argument for whether everyone should be allowed to be a parent for another time). So, just as allowing corporal punishment opens up a section of the population to possible physical abuse, banning it opens up the possiblity of sociological abuse, where a child with such a complete lack of any sense of consequence that they cannot integrate into modern society as adults and, instead, become a menace (often a serious physical variety) to those around them. In otherwords, they are raised to be criminals. Proponents of alternative parenting strategies have yet to come up with any practically applicable solutions to this issue. Essentially, banning spanking has removed one problem, only to replace it with another just as serious (if not possibly more so).
Of course, there are other contributing factors to the issues with British youth, but I'll leave those for another time.
What are your thoughts on the controversy surrounding the issues presented here?
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 02:17 am (UTC)To play devil's advocate you can always reward good behaviour, but personally, I don't see anything against spanking. Yes there is always the people who cross the line between discipline and abuse, but there is typically other factors involved in things like that. I, myself, got spanked as a child, and I think it definitely did its job.
I think the main thing though with any form of discipline is that the parents be consistent and strong in their decisions of punishment. Be it grounding, taking away of priveleges or spanking, which I do believe works better with younger children. I think a lot of parents hate being the 'bad guy' and often-times the father or the mother gets delegated the role, so being united is also key here, as one parent being the 'bad guy' leads to inconsistencies. And they have to realize that by not punishing their children, they aren't helping them, but often hindering them when it comes to future situations.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 09:49 am (UTC)As for rewarding good behaviour, that's always important, but it becomes pretty hard to do if the kid chooses not to exhibit anything that should be rewarded. I say should because many of these kids are effectively rewarded for any behaviour they exhibit. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, even the best kid is going to push the boundaries now and then. What's going to happen if that kid discovers the boundary isn't all that firm?
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 01:57 pm (UTC)Hmm... indeed, children need those firm boundaries for sure, cause if they push and there's no resistance obviously they'll go as far as they can. I guess I haven't met a child/person that far gone that there is NO good behaviour. But there is also the fact that if you push me I don't put up with shit, and I think that children/people can sense that to a degree. Like I said, I'm unfamiliar with British families, etc.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 07:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-15 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 07:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 07:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-15 11:53 pm (UTC)As a parent of a 7 yr old...
Date: 2009-03-16 12:59 am (UTC)I never believed in it before I became a parent either. Its way too easy to get overly angry and put enough force into the spanking to physically hurt a child. And the emotional hurt lasts far longer after the bruises fade.
Its especially easy to get that angry when its the end of the day, when one is tired, overwhelmed or has their own events of the day to deal with and has little energy for nagging or bad behaviour.
Re: As a parent of a 7 yr old...
Date: 2009-03-31 12:31 pm (UTC)Basically, if the situation has gotten to this point, something has gone critically wrong to begin with. From what I've observed of the use of spanking, in most cases, the situation doesn't even get to the point of requiring the spanking; just the threat of it is usually enough to get a kid's behaviour back in line, sparing a lot of grief for all involved.
But, yes, spanking should never be done in the heat of the moment, if it is to be done at all.