I keep seeing “who is worse, Andrew or Frederic” posts and I feel the need to say that they’re both bad in different ways, neither of them are necessarily worse than the other
Frederic was traumatized and because of that he became a corrupt ruler, even after Rapunzel’s return. He consistently invaded her privacy and took away her freedom of movement and used a minor as a scapegoat for his actions. He was forgiven too easily bc the show glorified him as a “misunderstood and desperate father”
Andrew most likely faced racism and couldn’t publicly participate in his heritage. He attempted to manipulate Cass and it’s implied he did the same to Varian. He attempted genocide twice and was almost successful once, tried to kill a minor, and helped essentially enslave the population of Corona before that
We can both agree that they’re both bad people, but neither of them is necessarily worse than the other. Also, stop making their only irredeeming qualities based off what they did to Varian, both of them had established personalities before that
I’m truly tired of everyone missing the point in Tangled. Wherever I go, I see everyone complaining oH hE cOulD haVe cUT heR hAiR lOnGeR- THAT IS THE POINT. HE DOESN’T CARE. HE LOVES RAPUNZEL FOR WHO SHE IS. NOT HER HAIR.
She spent a lifetime being used just for her hair by Mother Gothel. Flynn came to show that he loved THE WOMAN NOT THE HAIR.
Meanwhile, you, the audience, YOU loved Rapunzel only for her hair, unlike Eugene. Tch tch.
So a couple of weeks have passed since I finished TTS, I still can’t decide how I feel about the entire darkprince!Eugene subplot.
On the one hand, it’s a nice bow to the character he’s based on - as we all know, the one who saves Rapunzel in the fairytale is a prince. And the duality of Sun and Moon imposed on Rapunzel and Eugene in this case is also very compelling to me, I adore such symbolism in pairings.
BUT on the other, commoner!Eugene from the movie is so much more appealing, especially with this idea that someone may still be valid and deserve a happy ending (and a princess’s heart) despite his past and origin. And that the princess as well can fall for the commoner guy and marry him because what’s important is their bonding and feelings and what they mean to each other, but not what families they are from.
On the top of that, commoner!Eugene who didn’t have anything at all but gets everything because he deserved it with his actions and raises from a thief to a future KING-consort (!!) also makes for a super cool idea and final conclusion, and him being secretly a prince kinda… devalues it all?
Buuuut TTS doesn’t seem canon? Like the majority of things Disney produced for TV based on their big cartoon movies. So I guess it’s no bother.
Idk, it fits well into the TTS canon with its overall light-hearted tone, but looks unnecessary and counterproductive for the movie canon. I guess it’s safe to treat both as two different tangled-universes lol, at the end of the day even the characters look yet similar, but different. So it’s easy.
(Ah and also, I’m “a sucker for an upstairs-downstair romance”, as Eugene states in Rootbound, so yeah. Darkprince!Eugene is a cool “what if” to explore, but no more than that.)
I totally agree with this mixed impression of it. I also really like Edmund, but he didn’t need to be a king to be that kooky.
It doesn’t help that the series doesn’t actually explore him being born a prince, other than to say it happens and give him a crappier birth name. But it has no affect on his life or character growth. He never rubs it in anyone’s face (good for him? lol), he’s not given special treatment, or overcome some current problem due to his suddenly-revealed status. He’s just technically-Prince Horace Eugene, an orphan who found out he’s not an orphan after all, and becomes Captain of the Guard of Corona (another choice I’m fervently against).
So, like… why make him one if it doesn’t even matter?
Hi bex! Iam the person who asked about Kingdom dance last scene a few days back.
I loved your analysis so much. I read both of them. It gave me a whole new perspective on that moment. I was wondering if you have more posts analysing Rapunzel , Eugene or their relationship dynamic. If you do, I'd love to read them! 💜
Thanks for your time
Oh, that’s so sweet! The first one I can think of off the top of my head is related to the end of Kingdom Dance, too!
They aren’t just exhaling, they’re saying, “Hi,” to each other. And this is confirmed when you look at the progress footage the animator, Hyrum Osmond, revealed:
I’ve also got this analysis, about how Rapunzel doesn’t mess around when it comes to Eugene’s safety.
But the longer I think about it, the more I think that the closing credits are supposed to be specifically Eugene’s art style. Let’s start with the map:
It’s sparse, not too detailed, and includes things like a picture of Maximus labeled with “avoid this’ and an arrow in the ground labeled "got shot here.” If it was a pre-existing map, he’d have more pictures of trees to contend with, not a piece of parchment that’s clearly being filled in as it goes.
Also, the art during the credits are all things that he was present for or knows well, even if he wasn’t involved.
There’s even a few things that didn’t make it into the movie!
So given this, I say that if Claire Keane is the official artistic hand of Rapunzel, Shiyoon Kim is the official artistic hand of Eugene Fitzherbert. (And that the series blatantly got wrong/is not canon-compliant with how well he draws.)
How come I hadn’t realize that Eugene’s S1 outfit is based on his epilogue outfit from the movie but with rolled up sleeves?
And because @tangledbea had pointed out to me in the comments of my poll of Eugene’s outfits about his S1 outfit is meant to be his epilogue outfit with the sleeves rolled up
Yet we didn’t see Rapunzel in her epilogue outfit from the movie in the series, not even BEA. Like that’s strange, I wish we got to see Rapunzel in this dress.
I am forever salty that they didn’t ever give Rapunzel her epilogue dress in the series. Not even her gradual transition to cap sleeves instead of cap sleeves with ¾ sleeves attached! But both her epilogue dress and her wedding dress (same dress, different colors) have just little cap sleeves. I think it would have been cute/interesting in the series if her sleeves had just gradually gotten shorter, but instead we got
(I’m not including her winter attire because of course those sleeves are long.)
The closest thing to cap sleeves we got was her nightgown! (Not counting her island outfit – which I adore – because that style isn’t “cap sleeve” at all.)
Season two looked like it was flirting with the idea of her gradually transitioning to short sleeves, but then they went back on the idea in S3.
At the end of Kingdom dance, Rapunzel seems to get startled and detaches herself from Eugene and then they smile at each other. What was that about? 🤔
I actually have a whole analysis of this! Not that precise moment, but this has to do with the fact that Rapunzel was raised not to seek physical affection. (This post is my Tumblr legacy. Look at how many notes!)
To quote that part of the post linked above:
In fact, the first time she realizes she’s touching him, and he’s touching her, and there’s affection and enjoyment buzzing between them, she’s the first to pull away.
She’s alarmed at first, then apologetic and sheepish. Sorry I was touching you, Eugene. And he politely takes a step back, tuned in to her discomfort and giving her a little more space.
This entire interaction is just another step, another example, of Rapunzel feeling like she’s not allowed to seek physical affection, and has to be offered it before she can take it.
I also have a follow up post (not nearly as popular) that addresses the “I’ve Got a Dream” sequence and her relationship to the Pub Thugs.
I was thinking about something (thanks to reading a passage from Rootbound, but it’s not a spoiler): based on what we see in the movie, it’s always Rapunzel who sings the Flower’s incantation, never Gothel. But obviously there must have been a time when Gothel was the one singing it, back when Rapunzel was too little to do it herself, so why did she stop completely?
That detail struck me as really interesting from a psychological perspective, because it makes Rapunzel feel like an active participant in the ritual and gives her the impression that she has control over if, when, and how she uses her power. It’s not Gothel coldly and impersonally taking something from her; instead, it’s Rapunzel willingly and actively giving it to her.
And if that’s true, it’s like manipulation 101, which makes the writer’s work even more impressive.
This is something I’ve thought about for :checks watch: fifteen and a half years.
Not only is it manipulation 101, it shows Gothel creating a system where Rapunzel feels responsible for how Gothel is feeling (physically). A situation where Gothel can say, “You wouldn’t want mother to grow old and die, do you?” A world in which Gothel’s death would be directly on Rapunzel’s head, because she did nothing to stop it.
But this leads directly to a few linked theories of mine: 1) the Healing Incantation is more effective the more the caster means it. 2) Stress speeds up the aging process, even after magical youthening. 3) The effects of the flower don’t last as long the more it’s used.
We know, from the prologue of the movie, that Gothel used to allow herself to get very old before using the flower.
This is her right before the guards arrive. Her hair is fully grey, she’s toothless, her voice is craggy, her hands are gnarled.
She probably did this for a few reasons. 1) It was difficult to get to, and she didn’t want to make the trip more than was necessary. 2) She didn’t want to draw attention to the flower by being seen coming and going regularly. Interesting, this also implies that it wasn’t originally youth and beauty she was after, but eternal life. When she had to rely on getting to the flower to use it, she went as infrequently as she felt she could get away with. Didn’t allow herself to get as old as she was the first time she found it
because she wanted to be able-bodied enough that it wasn’t a struggle reaching it, but she didn’t use its power as often as she did once she had Rapunzel.
(The screencap above is after the magic is already being used, so she’s already started de-aging.)
And the older Rapunzel got, the more frequently Gothel used the magic, until she was using it daily or every other day, even when she only felt “a little run-down.”
Grey streaks in her hair, fine lines around her mouth and eyes, and a liver spot on her hand. But all in all, you don’t look at this woman and think, “She looks old!”
So, back to my first point. When Rapunzel youthens her in a few minutes, she sings quickly through the song, so much so that Gothel yelps at her to wait, gets youthened in a flash, then chastises at her for hurrying through it. The other times we see Rapunzel heal as a young adult, she’s slow and careful and methodic, and we know that when Eugene had died, she didn’t think it was going to work, but she had also never meant the words more. (This, I believe, is part of why the magic responded and performed one last supreme miracle.)
But! The next time Rapunzel encounters Gothel after that rapid healing, she looks like this.
(Contrast adjusted to see her better.)
This is after less than 24 hours since she’d been youthened that morning. Grey streaks in her hair, lines around her mouth. And this is at most a few hours, in universe, since the last time the audience sees her.
No grey hair at all, that we can see.
And then, the next time we see her after the campsite scene, she’s the oldest we’ve seen her since the prologue.
Contrasted adjusted so we can see. Her hair has gotten quite grey by now, her hands are starting to get knobbly, the lines around her mouth are more severe, there’s even additional age lines closer to her bottom lip. I’m sure if we saw the straight character model in plain lighting, it would be even more obvious.
Anyway, my point is that I think that her using the flower more frequently means it’s not as effective anymore, and being under extreme stress that Rapunzel has left the tower is making her age even faster. And her aging faster makes her more afraid to be without the flower and use it more frequently. It’s a vicious cycle.
After reading Rootbound. I’ve came to notice something about Rapunzel. I thought it was just the series writers railroading Cassandra for plot, and being bad at writing Eugene at times. But then Rootbound also seemed like it tilted to this direction as well.
Rapunzel has tunnel vision when it comes to people.
While she can do groups, and people try to put her into trios (series) she does ultimately better in duos.
When put into trios or groups, she has her focus divided, and as a result one of the trio or the group is left out, or put to the side.
When writing her, the various media tend to have a leaning where she puts all of her undivided attention on one person at a time when both/all are around, and only switches when the the current focus is absent.
She can care about more than one person and be friends. And also help several people. But her priority can only be one at a time.
Is this a character trait, or just all of the writers having to force narrative?
It’s a character trait. Gothel insisted that Rapunzel put all her focus on her whenever she was in the room. Just look at how Rapunzel reacted when Gothel first gets home in the movie: Rapunzel tries to tell her that it’s almost her birthday and she has a special request, but Gothel says, “Flower, mother’s feeling a little run down. Would you sing for me, dear? Then we’ll talk.” And Rapunzel rushes around the room to set up the seating and brush, no just because she was excited to get through it to ask about seeing the lights, but because it’s what Gothel expects of her. Gothel wasn’t at all put out by this behavior until Rapunzel made her sit.
Gothel’s legitimate (not pop psychological) narcissism led her to make sure Rapunzel was completely tuned into her needs at all time. It’s also why Rapunzel is a people pleaser. Gothel acted kind and caring, and the instant Rapunzel put a toe out of line, she would scream at her. It was in Rapunzel’s best interest to focus on her and make sure she stayed happy.
And this carried over once she was out of the tower.
It’s also something I hope she grows out of eventually, for her sake, but it’s going to take years of practice to unlearn the habit.
Would someone like to explain to me why Rapunzel is the only female (named) character in TTS who has lips as a child?
Like, the others have the line mouths as kids
Even Vex, who’s a teenager
Why does Rapunzel have lips as a kid when others don’t? What age do other girls get to have lips?
It’s for glamor (she’s the princess and we know how pretty she was as a baby/child), and because she canonically has pretty pink lips as a child in the movie.
They had a canon design to work from, which got translated over into her series design.
Those other four are meant to be read as tough/tomboyish, and not glamorous. (Yes, even Cassandra, who was quite feminine as a child, was not glamorous.)
Do you have any input on how TTS explored Eugene's character? Specifically on the proposals? I know at the end of the 2010 movie, it's stated that Eugene proposed several times before Rapunzel said yes, which they obviously had to incorporate into the show one way or another.
The main issue I had with the first proposal was the fact that they made him seem relatively insightful with how she was feeling during the first movie? He was never made out to be ignorant in my opinion (except maybe for the very beginning when they first leave the tower.) I would think he would think it probably wasn't the best idea to propose on such an already overwhelming day, even if he was under the assumption she would want to be engaged. It just felt somewhat out of character to me.
I'm very curious what your opinions are! Sorry for the wordy paragraphs lol.
I don’t have any insights into the process beyond what you mentioned, but I didn’t particularly have an issue with him biffing the first proposal, for a few reasons:
Everything that he mentioned when he was pouring his heart out to what he though was Rapunzel but turned out to be Pascal: he correctly read their connection, correctly read that she’d want to spend her life with him. But he was acting a bit out of insecurity, something which movie Eugene does canonically have. Also, Rapunzel has always tended to try to hide how she’s feeling when it’s negative, so him not knowing that she wasn’t ready is at least partially on her for not communicating her wants and needs. (I do have a problem with the writing team deciding that she wouldn’t trust Eugene with that information, but would trust Cassandra, though.)
Eugene is also still trying to impress her family still. Although we have no reason to think that he’s not good at playing royal, he’s not actually trained to be noble, and would easily see a proposal as the perfect bow on an already big occasion like her coronation as heir to the throne of Corona. Again, Rapunzel didn’t let him know otherwise that she was already way too overwhelmed.
As for his insight, even Eugene was in over his head a bit. He’s spent the last six months trying to figure out who Eugene Fitzherbert was, because at that point in his life, he’d been Flynn Rider for longer than he’d been Eugene. He was trying to fit into castle life, trying to convince the rulers of the country and guards alike that he deserved to be there with Rapunzel, trying to navigate this new life just as much as Rapunzel was. Plus, more than anything else, he respects Rapunzel. He’s never forced her to talk about how she feels, even in the movie, so when she keeps closed off, he doesn’t try to force the issue, and that’s a consistent trait of his.
Tangled the series being “she got the desire to live her own life and see the world out of her system before settling down for marriage” pilled, when the show went into hyper specific plots that revolved around her wanting the exact opposite for an entire season is something that’s irritated me for the past 6 years.
Not to be anti marriage necessarily, but I feel like traveling a year (?) and not even for leisurely purposes would never have been enough for her. She spent her entire life not being allowed to so much as go outside. Just to go back to being stuck within the walls of a kingdom, with slightly more freedom than she initially had. Obviously directly after the journey, (and especially with how it ended) she was excited to go home, but the fact that they tried to act like she was just done with traveling as a whole was kind of depressing to me
I’m aware she was pretty much legally obligated to run the kingdom eventually, but I think they tried to portray it as a very satisfying ending when it wasn’t.
It always bugged me that they decided to portray marriage as the end of her adventures, rather than acknowledging that two people in their 20s still have a lot of life ahead of them.
Most kings and queens don’t gracefully retire and pass the duty of ruling down to their heirs, they die, and the heir takes over at that point. I think it’s much safer to say that it’s unlikely that Frederic or Arianna would be going anywhere beyond their cabin in the mountains for any sort of extended period of time, and that Rapunzel, along with Eugene, would be able and willing to do all long-distance dignitary work, which could easily include sightseeing and exploring along the way.
(All this to say: I agree with you. It was lukewarm writing to imply that she’d be satisfied now.)
the fact that tangled has a perfect set-up for major miscommunication between rapunzel and eugene to be the final emotional climax of the movie (“why’d you leave me”) but instead sidesteps that in favor of a beautiful battle between the two of them in which they try to out-sacrifice each other because they love and understand each other that much. the fact that they each try to save the other using the best means they’ve got at their disposal, the ones they’ve used their whole lives: rapunzel bargaining with mother gothel and promising away pieces of herself- this time all of herself- in exchange for his safety, Eugene pulling one final scam and trick when he feigns tenderly touching her face so he can actually cut off all her hair and set her free. the fact that Eugene’s plan works but as a result he dies, Flynn dies. (he told us this at the beginning, “this is the story of how I died” but remember- it’s a fun story.) The fact that the swashbuckling rogue and trickster and thief Flynn DIES so that rapunzel, the girl who never got to have a life, can LIVE. The fact that after one final successful trick Flynn dies so Eugene, little lost orphan boy, can rise again in his final and only role as a good man and as rapunzel’s husband- all of these make tangled the masterpiece it is. in this essay I will
OP where’s the essaaaaay
What unites Eugene and Rapunzel, what forms the basis of their connection, is not just their lonely, isolated, unloved childhoods but the mechanisms they each used and still use to try to fill the voids in their lives. And those mechanisms boil down to- keeping busy, whatever the cost. Rapunzel’s opening song is literally a montage of her desperate attempts to fill an otherwise empty day (and empty life) and Eugene steals for the riches, sure, but mostly for the adventure, the thrill, the chase. The motion and color of it and the ways in which it is the opposite of boredom, the opposite of emptiness.
They are both resourceful and determined, used to doing the best they can with what they have, and as a result they encounter each other and decide to team up. Practicality, not romance, is what drives them together and what keeps them together for much of the movie.
Their methods of filling voids with whatever scheme they can concoct, the skills they’ve both gained from their past experiences, become the means they use to achieve their shared goal: get Rapunzel to the city to watch the floating lights and return her safely home. The scrapes and (mis)adventures they get into on their way are not just filler or fluff; they are opportunities to highlight the natural teamwork they have, the ways in which they complement and complete each other and so help each other: Rapunzel solves the run-in with the group of thugs/misfits with vulnerability and openness; together, they escape from the guards and avoid drowning.
Already this is an improvement on their previous work, their previous “business”. It has more warmth, it has more success, it has more color. But that’s not all. Alongside their adventures, they start to talk to each other. Confide in each other. Nothing huge or dramatic. When he tells her his name he follows it with the dryly delivered “someone might as well know”. And when he asks about the situation at home, his voice is gentle and kind but not full of depth of feeling just yet. But it’s real, honest connection about their pasts and so contains within it the articulation of their emptiness. It’s the realest relationship either of them have ever had. It’s far realer than anything their past endeavors have ever brought them.
When they reach the lights, Rapunzel realizes this and it comes out in her words expressing her fears and worries about the lights. Understandably, she’s scared finally seeing the lights won’t be enough. But then, and here’s the beautiful thing, she’s scared that it will be. “And what if it is,” she says, tears in her eyes and voice. “What then?” This is the moment in which Rapunzel recognizes that she really has never filled the void in her life, the place where real love and human connection should be, and that the lights won’t do it either. Chasing the lights was her noblest effort yet, a beautiful and real and a valid dream, but still not enough. because the lights are not a person and the lights can’t love her back.
Eugene’s answer to this is hopeful- there’s always another dream to chase. But he still doesn’t really have an answer for her. He doesn’t really understand.
Until they see the lights.
Until they see the lights together.
Their golden glow and beauty is enchanting, it’s everything she dreamed it would be. And then, it’s more.
And it’s more because when she turns around, right at the end of the first verse, she sees him. Holding her dream in her hands, watching her watch it, experiencing it with her.
That’s when she knows.
She hands him the satchel and he knows he knows too.
He knows that there is no new dream, no better dream, than her, than a real life of love with the person in front of him.
After the lights happens everything I said in the original post. They’re torn apart and beautifully, magically, unexpectedly Mother Gothel’s ploy to sow discord between them doesn’t work. Rapunzel sees through Mother Gothel’s lie to see the truth of everything, including his reasons for leaving, and when he shows up there is no reproach or misunderstanding to clear away. Like I said in my original post, they understand each other now.
And like I said in the post above, Rapunzel’s bargaining for his life and Eugene’s cutting off of her hair are the means they use to set the other free. And ultimately Eugene wins. He dies and his death, the first time she truly experiences loss, opens her up to a fuller understanding of and use of her magic and her healing. He is restored to her and they live (truly) happily ever after.
But my point with all of this is, the heart of the story and its own specific magic, is that their skills and habits and means- whatever the word we want to use is- garnered by each of their efforts to fill their life with meaning finally fulfilled their true purpose, finally made them happy. Because they stopped being the end goal of their lives and became the means to their true purpose- the life and love they have with each other.
a cute detail i noticed in tangled is the foreshadowing on rapunzels crib at the start of the movie
the chameleon is pascal
the duck is the snuggly ducking
the angel is shorty (drunk cupid)
and the horse is max
i don’t know what the bird could be though, maybe freedom or something along those lines🤷♀️
Rapunzel is actually characterized by birds! I don’t know if the fans dubbed it thus or if it was something said in an interview, but she has what we call the “freedom bird,” and it’s represented several times in the movie, most notably at the end of “When Will My Life Begin (Reprise)”.
You even have that one who lingers and looks at her!
And then, in “Tangled Ever After” (the wedding short), there’s two birds in the tree at the beginning: one for her and one for Eugene.
There are a lot more bird references in the series, too.
I think that we, as a society, moved on too quickly from that scene in Tangled where Eugene and Rapunzel are waiting for the lanterns and he holds flowers for her to place on the water surface.
The silent beauty of this scene is so poetic.
They’re not talking about important stuff for the plot. They’re just enjoying each others’ company in such a simple way. No need for talking. He’s looking at Rapunzel and sees how she’s living the moment, not afraid of being outside, not worried about her mother anymore or what will come next.
And can I imagine those flowers were picked by Eugene from her braid? To show that Rapunzel is comfortable with him touching her hair since she knows he’s not interested in her because of it.
I mean, where else would they have gotten the flowers? He’d already shown to be trustworthy touching her hair when he helped her gather it up when they first got into town! 🥰
