In the first run I offered several, all vaguely connected to the same point in time: post-Sunshot and largely to do with Wei Wuxian's rescue of the Wens, episodes 26 and 27. If only someone had stood with him.
There are, of course, others.
For example, wouldn't it have been nice if Wei Wuxian had actually let Nie Mingjue kill Xue Yang?
- Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan would still be alive
- A-Ying would also still be alive
- Jin Guangshan would have had nobody to plot with regarding the Yin Metal, meaning lots of people might still be alive.
And Xue Yang really would be no great loss.
Another way canon could have gone much better if Nie Mingjue just had been that bit more stabbity: taking out Meng Yao after he killed that guard captain (for which I don't blame, him, btw, the guy was a bully). Imagine all the things that would have happened differently.
(Of course Meng Yao would not have been around to spy on the Wens... so maybe that would be too much of a drawback.)
Alternatively and with less bloodshed, something someone in my circle mentioned recently, if Meng Yao had stayed at Cloud Recesses for the study arc. Made friends. Been valued... maybe it wouldn't have been too late them to turn him into a trustworthy human being.
Going back to a point of divergence less focused on taking out the opposition: what if after he came back from the Burial Mounds, WWX had told Jiang Cheng and Lan Zhan about having been there and about having lost his core? He could always blame Wen Chao. I guess he just didn't want everyone to think less of him. Jiang Cheng's notion of coreless people being 'useless persons' was probably shared widely, thanks for nothing, ableist cultivator pricks.
1. Your most rewatched episode.
2. Moment(s) when you have really identified with a character.
3. A headcanon you discovered only on a rewatch.
4. Your favourite hairstyles.
5. Favourite costume.
6. Favourite canon animal.
7. Second most appealing point for a canon divergence AU.
8. A character on whom your opinion changed over time.
9. A view you hold that you think is rare or unpopular in the fandom.
10. A fanwork that changed your view on something in the canon.
11. Something you'd like to import from one version of canon to another.
12. Name a flaw that your favourite character has.
13. Say something nice about a character you don't like.
14. A piece of fanon you love, a piece of fanon you love sometimes, and a piece of fanon that doesn't work for you.
15. Something this fandom made you like or appreciate that you normally don't or previously didn't.
16. Something you have learned because of being in this fandom.
17. An interpretation of something in canon that changed because of rewatching.
18. An interpretation of something in canon that changed because of fannish discussion.
19. Pick a trope you love and spin it for your favourite character/favourite pairing.
20. Pick a trope that's normally not your cup of tea and spin it for your favourite character/favourite pairing.
21. If they lived now wherever you are, and assuming language wasn't an issue, what would your favourite character watch on TV?
22. Canon crossover/fusion you would enjoy.
23. An AU scenario you would like to see your favourite character/pairing in.
24. Your favourite look on your favourite character.
25. Your favourite look on a character you dislike/who isn't your favourite.
26. Which two characters who haven't interacted in canon would you like to have meet, and how would it go?
27. You can bring back one dead character, but you have to trade one surviving character for them. Who would they be?
28. Most underrated character.
29. Which hero would make a good villain and vice versa?
30. Rec a fanwork (you didn't rec the first time around).
31. Prompt for a fanwork (that you didn't prompt the first time around).
no subject
Date: 2021-04-08 16:43 (UTC)It's almost freaky how much the rewatch makes you go JUST LISTEN TO NIE MINGJUE. Like, okay, he falls down a bit on the instincts WRT Wen Qing and Wen Ning later, but his instincts as to who really needs killing are A++.
Alternatively and with less bloodshed, something someone in my circle mentioned recently, if Meng Yao had stayed at Cloud Recesses for the study arc. Made friends. Been valued... maybe it wouldn't have been too late them to turn him into a trustworthy human being.
This, too. With maybe some helpful morally upright Lan cock. I think Meng Yao will always stay a loaded gun to some degree, but I can see a version of events where he never goes off.
what if after he came back from the Burial Mounds, WWX had told Jiang Cheng and Lan Zhan about having been there and about having lost his core? He could always blame Wen Chao. I guess he just didn't want everyone to think less of him.
Yeah, it's an interesting question whether he thought through that he really could have spun a decent tale that still kept his sacrifice for Jiang Cheng's sake secret. But he's running on so much anger and fear and trauma in that period, I really suspect the idea of having to see Jiang Cheng and Lan Zhan's faces as he told them was... a no go.
no subject
Date: 2021-04-11 16:31 (UTC)Right? Apart from his hatred of the Wens, so... when it's not structural but personal... he really knows who needs to go.
Yes, I think that's the general idea.
Yes, that's what I think it was, plus a fear that being no longer Lan Zhan's equal would make Lan Zhan... no longer be interested in him. He can't lose him, too.
no subject
Date: 2021-04-10 03:55 (UTC)I was not that into the Xue Yang arc, so I'm not going to contradict you...
if Meng Yao had stayed at Cloud Recesses for the study arc. Made friends. Been valued... maybe it wouldn't have been too late them to turn him into a trustworthy human being.
Maybe? I haven't thought about him that much, but I thought he was an interesting villain because even when he gets what he thinks he wants and deserves, it's not enough.
I like the divergences where WWX tells someone close to him about the core loss. He really doesn't like being the vulnerable one.
no subject
Date: 2021-04-11 16:33 (UTC)Man it would be so nice to have him taken out early.
Well, last time round my main focus was on getting the chara who is doing the right thing support. This time my main focus was on foiling the bad guys. Meng Yao is definitely more complex and hence interesting that Xue Yang (who is not interesting at all) but I have a feeling that right at the start... I mean just look at him and Xichen in that segment...
no subject
Date: 2021-04-12 15:49 (UTC)I was feeling a little mean toward Meng Yao earlier. Yeah, that is the point that I'd find most interesting as a divergence for him. He can get distracted by Lan Xichen, and potentially help him with the Wen schemes to change those outcomes, too. And lol, yeah, Xichen would not have minded.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-18 18:48 (UTC)There have been several fics about MY staying at Cloud Recesses, I think. I loved "Somewhere to belong" by KouriArashi - she does a lot of canon divergence AUs and has a soft spot for the super clever twinks, sooo… XD I think, if MY had been valued more in his early life, if his father hadn’t been such a shitstain, then he could’ve turned out okay. MY, XY, and WWX are great foils for each other, because they start roughly the same as orphans in bad circumstances, but go such different routes, and you can really argue the nature vs nurture aspect with them.
what if after he came back from the Burial Mounds, WWX had told Jiang Cheng and Lan Zhan about having been there and about having lost his core? He could always blame Wen Chao. I guess he just didn't want everyone to think less of him. Jiang Cheng's notion of coreless people being 'useless persons' was probably shared widely, thanks for nothing, ableist cultivator pricks.
Ahhh oh boy, now you’ve mentioned WWX telling someone (besides the Wens) of the golden core transfer, and I’m just… I’ve got feelings. So many. This is just such a tragic turning point in the story, that whole big "what if", I’ve read so much fic about it, exploring the reasoning of WWX, thinking about it a lot, and man, it’s painful.
First, I really like JC. I liked him from the start, because I recognised WWX and JC’s behaviour as rather typical sibling stuff, especially between teenaged boys, but also just in general. I have no siblings myself, but many of my friends do, and I saw this kind of bickering and teasing a lot when they were about 12 - 16. And I thought that there were moments where you could see that JC actually cares for WWX, though he often tries to mask it and hides behind his anger. He’s the sect heir, all that pressure on him to represent his sect well at the CR lessons, and then his shixiong makes trouble! Noooo! And later on, yeah, everything goes to shit, and he has a lot to shoulder and no one there to help him - he thought he could rely on WWX, but now his brother is always just drunk and won’t teach the disciples, WTF WWX? His sister is supportive of course, but it’s in that motherly way she has that doesn’t help him run the sect - and then she marries out and he’s alone, basically. At, what 22?
I really have a soft spot for him. But he seems to be a divisive character. XD
Anyway, golden core transfer and WWX not telling about it.
I do think this kind of ableism of the cultivation world - without a golden core you’re nothing, you’re just mundane, you can’t follow the glorious righteous path anymore - is definitely one aspect of it, though I think it’s more important for JC and why he falls into such a deep depression.
And it definitely also has to do with Lan Wangji - they pledged themselves to walk the same path, to fight the injustices of the world and help the weak, and well, WWX cannot do this anymore. He thinks that if he cannot be LWJ’s equal in cultivation, LWJ would not want to be his partner anymore at all. So that is a huge blow, for sure.
But I think the most important reason is that he wants to protect JC. He knows that his cultivation was everything for JC, it’s his whole life. Of course, it’s pretty much the same for WWX, but they have very different backgrounds. WWX is the son of a servant and grew up in the knowledge that he would later serve JC as his right hand man, do anything to be an asset to the Yunmeng Jiang. JC grew up the heir, the one who would take over all responsibilities from his father. Without a golden core he would not be able to do that. His whole purpose in life is basically over and he also is a (further...) disappointment to his parents and their legacy.
So WWX cannot tell about the transfer. Because the both of them had been compared all their lives - and JC had always been found wanting. WWX was always better, in everything. JC’s parents fought because of it, it was a constant cause for arguments - JFM praised WWX all the time and not his actual son! If JC knew that he got not his own core back but that of WWX - what would he think? Wouldn’t he doubt himself, question whether his strength - which is indisputable - doesn’t now come from WWX and not from himself? Could he ever have been that great without WWX? Wouldn’t he resent that after a while?
Also, WWX doesn’t ask before doing the transfer because he couldn’t bear if JC said no - and JC would also hate that he had that option but didn’t take it. But! What if he'd said yes? Whole other can of worms, because wouldn’t JC hate himself for taking this away from his brother, knowing already himself how horrible it is? It’s just shit either way (and we haven’t even gotten into the ethical dilemma of this here…).
I think what’s important to remember is the state of mind they’re all in before the core transfer.
Lotus Pier has been overrun by the Wens. The Wens say they want to retaliate since WWX had behaved so badly at the Indoctrination. Madame Yu is intelligent enough to know that this is just a flimsy excuse to attack (they didn’t need an excuse to attack the Yao Sect, or the Lans), but it’s very convenient for her. She throws this in WWX’s face: "It’s your fault, I always knew you would bring us all bad luck, I hate you!" WWX sees how disciples are murdered, even the children. He’s been badly hurt by Zidian but still wants to fight, but Madame Yu doesn’t let him. He gets put on the boat with a hysterically crying JC and the last thing Madame Yu tells him is: "I hate you, this is on you, you have to protect JC with your life!"
They’re all traumatised, but WWX is the one who has to keep it together the most - he’s steering the boat while JC and JYL cry and comfort each other. He gets blamed by JC in a moment of rage and just takes it because he has accepted this as the truth - it’s his fault. Everyone dying, JC’s parents dying, his fault. JC gets caught by the Wens when he leaves the inn. WWX again thinks it’s his fault because he didn’t keep an eye on him, knowing that JC was so beside himself with grief that he perhaps might not think clearly. (He of course doesn’t know the truth, that JC left to protect WWX…)
So JC gets caught, loses his golden core - of course this also is WWX’s fault! Madame Yu told him to take care of JC and he failed! JC has lost his will to live and that’s just… WWX cannot take seeing his younger brother like that.
Also, without JC the Yunmeng Jiang won’t exist anymore. We don’t know about any cousins that could’ve inherited, and JYL cannot inherit because misogyny, and anyway, how many disciples are actually left? JC is wasting away, WWX couldn’t protect him even though he had to promise Madame Yu (thanks for that, put all this on the shoulders of an 18 year old, why not), and now this would be the end of their sect as well?
WWX needs to find a solution. Everyone says he is a genius, and he promised, so he has to find something! And it’s just… he feels so guilty, blames himself for all this shit even though rationally it of course isn’t his fault, but well, he grew up like this with this deep insecurity and feeling of "I don’t really belong in this family" that Madame Yu enforced. He serves this sect and so he will do anything to help. There’s also the case of older sibling syndrome, where you do anything to protect the younger ones from harm - any harm. Rather getting hurt yourself than seeing your siblings getting hurt, and not telling about your own problems and worries and pain, because you don’t want them to hurt for your sake…
And so WWX finds a solution. It’s a really shitty one, but he’d do everything and anything to rescue JC (who seems to have given up on life by now, even if he’s perhaps not actively suicidal…). I mean he was totally prepared to let them cut off his hand if that made the Wens leave again! He’s got such a self-sacrificing streak, it’s painful. WQ tries to talk him out of it, but no chance, WWX is set on this since it seems to be the only possibility to help JC. But of course JC cannot know how it’s actually done, because see above - what if he says no? What if he says yes?
There is so fucking much going on in the background leading up to this decision. They’re all too traumatised to make actually good rational decisions. They’re also all much too young to go through so much shit. It’s a clusterfuck of a situation. I’m pretty sure WWX thought he’d simply… die during the war, in battle, and that would’ve been that. No one would have known, he would’ve died the heroic death in war, having done what he could. He did not bet on being thrown into the Burial Mounds etc.
So, if JC cannot know the real reason why WWX lost his core, then why not tell a lie, like - he got caught by Wen Chao and WZL, it's not a stretch to say he lost his core there. I think this is because JC would say, "let's go to BSSR, she can restore your core, too!" - and then realising that.. that would be a bad idea, because he pretended to be WWX to get his core back, and WWX coming back three months later ... that doesn't work. Cue guilt trip because JC took away WWX's chance for a new core etc.
Perhaps, the only way I can see perhaps working is if WWX had admitted to being thrown into the Burial Mounds and saying that the resentful energy there destroyed all the pathways in his body for a core to connect to. Like nope, nothing to be done here anymore. But he doesn't want to admit about the Burial Mounds. And I also think that he grapples with his bloody revenge trip, because it's not killing in battle, it's very vindictively and cruelly murdering people who cannot fight back against their attacker. The way he acts when he sees LWJ and JC there for the first time, and later how angry he gets when he thinks that LWJ has told JYL about Yiling show that. It really seems that he has convinced himself he cannot put this weight on his siblings' shoulders, and also that LWJ ever only tolerated him and now whatever they had in common is gone.
I think it would have turned out much different if he had told someone. If at least LWJ had known, if someone had been in his corner… I once read a fic where LQR finds out and his sense of righteousness makes him help WWX, because fuck, the kid didn’t have another choice, it’s not hybris and pure arrogance and hunger for power, it’s the only way WWX still has left to cultivate at all.
But I guess this is what’s so fascinating about CQL: There are so many good talking points in the story, you can analyse this to death, it’s so very dense.
And this is now much much much too long. I’m sorry. Feel free to ignore this essay on your almost a year old post. XD The feels made me do it.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-19 08:10 (UTC)I read that recently and liked it! I like all her fic, really. She was a great mainstay of X/1999 fandom back in the day, too, and I wish she'd put that fic up on AO3 (I asked once, but she's too busy.)
That is so funny because I do have siblings and if they'd ever behaved like that with me I'd have cut ties very soon. (In fact one of them, due to circumstances beyond her control, is legit stressed these days and has adopted what in my head I call 'Jiang-Cheng-isms) after I stayed with her for a week on a trip back to Germany last August, I decided that rather than put up with that attitude, I'd pay for a hotel, thank you very much. Which is what I did at Xmas and boy did I have a better time.)
Anyway, so I had to have friends truly explain Jiang Cheng to me because his behaviour around WWX seemed so hostile to me. I really disliked him at the start. I don't any more, so I guess that's good. He has been well and truly fucked up by his awful parents, poor boy.
Yu furen laid the groundwork for that ages ago (even before the Wens attacked) but note how Jiang Cheng still goes on like that at the Guanyin temple. It's like hearing his mom say it has cemented it in his head as truth, and he keeps just unreflectedly throwing it at WWX over and over and over again. And sure, WWX will take the blame for, and the burden of, pretty much anything because he loves Jiang Cheng. I don't think that's what's behind the core transfer, though. Or, sure, partly it will be but I'm pretty certain he'd have done the exact same without this floating about. What else was he going to do? Watch Jiang Cheng die? Because that's what Jiang Cheng was busy working on.
Yeah, some people say 'oh but it was nonconsensual, bad boy' to which I say: he couldn't ask the question because there was no single good answer to it. What if Jiang Cheng said yes? How would he feel about himself going forward? Could he say yes? Would he want to but feel that, honourably, he really can't? Would he resent being asked? What if he says no? What will Wei Wuxian do then? Arrrrrgh.
I think saying he lost his core to Wen Zhuliu or in the Burial Mounds should have been possible, and yeah, Jiang Cheng would have felt a bit bad but at least the whole Baoshan Sanren thing had been Wei Wuxian's own idea and who was to know... but Wei Wuxian is too damaged, too ill, really, to think very clearly and is I think simply running on instinct.
Some of the best fix-its run off the idea that he tells at least Lan Zhan, or that Lan Zhan somehow finds out. :)
Interesting... I never read it quite like that. I see his actions re Lan Zhan and Jiang Cheng as... well, he fears rejection by Lan Zhan for his cultivation, so he makes sure to get his own rejection in first. He's afraid of anyone (including Jiang Cheng) touching him and finding out about his core. The only one he really doesn't want to know about what he did is Jiang Yanli, and I guess that makes sense? IDK. Also, these people he 'vindictively and cruelly' murdered had exterminated almost his entire clan and caused him a lot of cruel and vindictive pain when he coudln't fight back against them. I can't see how he wouldn't think what he did was fully justified.
Haha why would I do that? I've missed talking about this stuff!
no subject
Date: 2022-01-19 19:40 (UTC)I can totally understand that! I wouldn’t like to suffer this all the time, either, and often I’m glad that I simply don’t have siblings. But knowing this was something siblings might do, definitely helped judging their relationship in that context.
Yu furen laid the groundwork for that ages ago (even before the Wens attacked) but note how Jiang Cheng still goes on like that at the Guanyin temple….
Yes, absolutely, JC has internalised this and has no qualms flinging that at WWX when he’s angry because he knows this’ll land him a good hit. He also had 16 years to stew in his bitterness and resentment of everything that happened - his shixiong kind of betraying him in defecting for Wens and going back on all the promises they made, then his beloved sister getting killed because WWX lost control - JC has lost everything and he never actually came to terms with all that shit, just nursed all of that.
Tbh mostly I just want to sit them all down with a nice blanket and some hot chocolate, and make them have therapy. XD Please talk about all your traumas starting from childhood! XD
Hm I think guilt is not the only reason for WWX doing what he does, but it’s tangled up with everything else, especially JC giving up on life - I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear before. He loves his brother unconditionally and would’ve done anything for him before all that shit went down at Lotus Pier, but I think having the last he saw of YZY be "It’s your fault" - that must’ve left a lasting impression, especially after the way they all grew up.
But perhaps, if JC hadn’t gone into his depressive fugue state of "Let me waste away, my life has no worth anymore", perhaps they would’ve found another solution. Is is really said that you cannot regrow the core? Has anyone ever tried after getting it crushed by WZL? Or did they all just die out of sadness or in the ensuing fight or whatever?
he couldn't ask the question because there was no single good answer to it. What if Jiang Cheng said yes?
Yes exactly! Either answer would’ve come with serious repercussions and it’s just like, nooo ahhhh! *despairs*
but Wei Wuxian is too damaged, too ill, really, to think very clearly and is I think simply running on instinct.
Yeah, he’s definitely not thinking very rationally about this. :(
You know, the funniest thing happened yesterday: I’d posted this long ass comment, then went on tumblr, and one post there was basically: "Yeah there are so many good metas on why WWX doesn’t tell anyone about the golden core transfer, all very valid, but… likely it’s just because he’s 18 or 19 and his brain doesn’t understand real long-term consequences yet, like in his understanding life is over at 21 anyway."
And I was like, … yeah okay, valid. XD
Also, these people he 'vindictively and cruelly' murdered had exterminated almost his entire clan and caused him a lot of cruel and vindictive pain when he coudln't fight back against them.
Okay yeah, that’s of course true. But I think I’m coming at it from this perspective of: Cultivators pride themselves on their morals (and having the morally high ground) and righteousness and upholding the peace in the land etc. Some clans more than others, of course, but WWX explicitly pledges himself to that. And I think it makes a difference if you get revenge for the evil clan killing your family, so you kill them too - or if you take your time torturing them and killing them off in the most inventively cruel ways possible while they have no chance of fighting back and you’re enjoying this.
It of course makes sense since WWX suffered horribly at the Wens’ hands and so him wanting to get back at them is totally understandable. But I think it’s something that he… perhaps didn’t expect from himself? That he hadn’t thought he’d be capable of, and then it was… quite easy? IDK, that’s sth I think that might make him reevaluate how he sees himself. (It reminds me of what sometimes soldiers coming back from war say, who grapple with the things they had done while always thinking they wouldn’t be capable of that.)
And yeah, he antagonises LWJ immediately because LWJ starts with his "demonic cultivation is bad for you" spiel and WWX is like, "Okay yeah obviously you don’t like me anymore now", but also… LWJ doesn’t stay. He’s got enough reason to want to see the Wens killed,too, especially shitty Wen Chao, but he leaves (while JC stays because hell yes does he want to torture that motherfucker). So perhaps this could be taken as "The methods you are using are disgusting me, I don’t want part of it" and even though WWX knew LWJ would reject him, seeing it so clearly must sting.
It’s definitely obvious with JYL who he does not want to know, that’s a least made explicit in the show. That’s likely to protect her from the, IDK realities of war? But more likely I think is that he… doesn’t want her to know what he could do, how cruel he could be, because what if she thinks less of him now?
Arghhh this is all such a tangled mess and there is so much going on, it’s so tragic and sad! :(
I agree that some of the best fix-its are when LWJ finds out. :D Likely because WWX has someone in his corner at all, but also he has this important friendship back (that he thought was lost to him), and LWJ might also run interference with the others like his brother or NMJ. It changes a lot.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-20 08:36 (UTC)I am wondering if that will become a bit clearer when reading the novel. There seems to be a common understanding going around fandom that what Wen Zhuliu did didn't just destroy Jiang Cheng's core but also his meridians, so he can't regrow a core. But idk if that's just... creative making up of things or if there's an indication in the novel, or of course if this is something about how cultivation simply works (accepting here that such a thing does indeed exist).
More interesting could be the question whether Wei Wuxian might be able to regrow his, because it was much more carefully removed. Otoh if the meridian thing is true, then he'd have had to give some of those to Jiang Cheng too, because what use would a core he can't access be to Jiang Cheng.
Or maybe I'm just taking all this waaaaaaayyyy too literally.
Hmmm, he pledges himself to eliminating evil and protecting the weak. That leaves a lot of leeway for the treatment of enemy soldiers. And the prolonged torture was really just Wen Chao? But okay, I get your overall point. He may well have discovered cruelty in himself he didn't expect to be capable of. Guess all that dark energy may even have been part of that.
Because he and Jiang Cheng kick him out. "This is a matter for the Jiang family." That, in combination with WWX addressing him in the most formal terms possible and claiming that he's too much of an outsider to understand him... what was he supposed to do?
Yes, so sad. :(((
no subject
Date: 2022-01-20 18:53 (UTC)Yeah, I've often seen it stated that, if WZL crushed the core there was no chance of regrowing it and I had wondered about this. I hope the novel will make it clearer.
If it's not all down to the meridians, then I think WWX might actually have a chance of growing it back. Yeah, it would take lots of work, but it might be possible. I really need to read up on Daoism more, a lot of it is likely explained there.
Yeah, all that resentment he took with him from the Burial Mounds must influence him and his actions. We see him struggling with it and trying to control it several times, and considering that he basically carried along all the resentful ghosts from there... *shudders*
Because he and Jiang Cheng kick him out. "This is a matter for the Jiang family."
Ah see I didn't remember that, it's been too long since I watched it. (*/ω\*) I only remembered that LWJ left, and overall more details from the super tense conversation beforehand.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-21 07:09 (UTC)I doubt it will do, at least regarding Wei Wuxian, because he gets Mo Xuanyu's body when he comes back, which renders the whole thing moot.
But we shall see . :)