musesfool: Sturmhond (Nikolai) from Shadow & Bone (a pirate's life for me)
i did it all for the robins ([personal profile] musesfool) wrote2010-07-28 02:12 pm

i don't have to fear it

You guys, I don't understand how badfic is bad in exactly the same ways in EVERY SINGLE FANDOM I'VE EVER READ. To wit:

= The other man, the older man, the taller man, the blonder man etc. - just how many people are in this story anyway? And why are they thinking of themselves/people they know in these terms?

Epithets! DO NOT WANT! Especially the ones that want to be Homeric but never make it: 'the green-eyed hunter,' 'the dark blonde transgenic' etc. are no 'swift-footed Achilles' or 'grey-eyed Athena,' I tell you what.

= emerald/sapphire/chocolate orbs - why do they have gemstones (or chocolate) in their eyes?

= lustrous obsidian/raven/fiery/burnished copper locks - *hands* IDEK

= screaming, shrieking, shrilling, gritting, keening, mewling, husking (dear god, if you are not shucking corn, please to not be using "husk" as a verb; this has rapidly moved up my list of pet peeves), purring, growling, etc. etc.

Occasional use of speaking words other than said/asked/replied/answered/responded is good. You want them to mean something in the narrative, though, you want them to stand out and tell the reader something. Having every speaking tag be something different is just... it renders them all meaningless and hilarious. (Not to mention that I never find screaming during sex erotic in stories - it makes it sound painful, and generally that's not what the writer is going for there. ALSO on the 'that sounds painful, not sexy' list: stripping someone's cock. Ouch! I don't even have one and it makes me cross my legs in sympathy. And the malapropism "lathed" for "laved" ["laved" is another word to use sparingly, if at all, but it is most definitely not the same thing as "lathed."])

I mean, okay, yes all fandoms have their own specific brands of badness (please tell me that surprise!songfic has never migrated beyond Dark Angel; it's horrifying enough there), but somehow badfic always has these things in common! I know I've committed some of them myself over the years, so I guess some of it is just newbie-writerness that never gets corrected.

The best explanation for why epithets are so irritating, from a technical standpoint, is that they're POV breaks. Dean wouldn't think of himself as "the green-eyed hunter" even if someone else might describe him that way; he certainly wouldn't think of Sam as "the other man" or "the taller man". If he wasn't using Sam's name, he'd refer to him as "my brother." I mean, okay, when I talk to my siblings, we sometimes identify ourselves that way, "Hey, it's your sister, call me back." [clearly we expect Dom to know which sister *snerk* and he usually does.] My brother-in-law refers to my sister as "My wife" in conversation all the time, but my sister rarely calls him "My husband" when she talks about him. Notice these things - they can be facets of characterization when used well, but for god's sake, your POV character is probably not going to talk about their chocolate orbs being filled with crystal tears [especially if your POV character is Max Guevara, for example].

*waves hands*

I know I'm just preaching to the choir here, but man, it never fails. Every fandom I've ever read in, these things pop up. It's irritating when it isn't ludicrously funny - it makes me sad and cranky whenever I see a story that could be really good otherwise falling prey to these things.

obdisclaimer: obviously this is all my opinion. if you like stories with epithets and/or gemstone eyes and/or POV breaks, your mileage obviously varies.


***
celli: "not even for my jackass woobie old west boyfriend can I put up with this shit." (not even for Ezra)

[personal profile] celli 2010-07-28 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
how tf do you husk when it's NOT corn?????

(no subject)

[personal profile] celli - 2010-07-28 19:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] zillah975 - 2010-07-29 17:53 (UTC) - Expand
ratcreature: RatCreature as Rodney recoiling from a Lemon: Gaah! (gaah)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-07-28 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
(please tell me that surprise!songfic has never migrated beyond Dark Angel; it's horrifying enough there)

If by surprise songfic you mean that random song lyrics ambush you in the middle of a story because the characters are listening to the radio and for some reason find the stupids pop song deeply meaningful or something, I have in fact encountered that in fandoms that are not DA.

(no subject)

[personal profile] tzikeh - 2010-07-28 19:50 (UTC) - Expand
newredshoes: possum, "How embarrassing!" (true blood | being a vampire's like that)

[personal profile] newredshoes 2010-07-28 06:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Man, this brings a tear to my eye as I remember my babyfan self writing hobbit slash with "the Brandybuck" and "the Took." I had no idea it was so bad! I just couldn't think of another way to say it. Thank goodness I got slapped around by a friend for it.

(no subject)

[personal profile] tesserae - 2010-07-31 21:28 (UTC) - Expand
rusty_halo: (spn: sam/dean: hazy)

[personal profile] rusty_halo 2010-07-28 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
It's irritating when it isn't ludicrously funny - it makes me sad and cranky whenever I see a story that could be really good otherwise falling prey to these things.

Man, me too. The really frustrating thing is that I've never been able to figure out a diplomatic way to tell an author "Hey, I think your writing has promise, but here are some things you might want to work on" without starting a fight. I feel like their ought to be a "fanfic 101" page that explains why these things are commonly accepted as flaws that I could link to anonymously whenever this happens.

(I wouldn't bother with random badfic writers--it's when I think a writer really has promise that I wish I could find a way to help them improve.)

Meh, it's not worth the wank, though. But yeah, I share your frustration.

(no subject)

[personal profile] celli - 2010-07-28 19:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] tazlet - 2010-07-28 19:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] tzikeh - 2010-07-28 20:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] rusty_halo - 2010-07-28 20:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] coraa - 2010-07-28 21:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] midnitemarauder - 2010-07-29 17:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] rusty_halo - 2010-07-29 18:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[identity profile] skaredykat.livejournal.com - 2010-07-31 23:29 (UTC) - Expand
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)

[personal profile] cofax7 2010-07-28 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it's even worse in a small fandom, because in a small enough social context, that sort of thing is self-reinforcing, and newcomers to the fandom read the existing texts and become convinced this is the way to do it.

Doesn't apply just to language use, either: it's certainly a common problem with fanon and characterizations.

(no subject)

[personal profile] coraa - 2010-07-28 19:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] zillah975 - 2010-07-29 17:56 (UTC) - Expand
glass_icarus: (sott: euphemism)

[personal profile] glass_icarus 2010-07-28 06:58 pm (UTC)(link)
i... husked. HUSKED?!?!?!?! s;dlkfjs;dlkfj *brain offline*

(no subject)

[personal profile] glass_icarus - 2010-07-28 20:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] beck_liz - 2010-07-28 23:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] cofax7 - 2010-07-29 18:05 (UTC) - Expand
isis: (yum)

[personal profile] isis 2010-07-28 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I could go for some chocolate orbs right now. Although I generally call them 'truffles'. Mmm.
vehemently: (Default)

[personal profile] vehemently 2010-07-28 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I particularly like crying crystal tears. That's got to be like passing a kidney stone, yo!

A lot of the wrong-vocab-word ones sound like a cathexys of unfortunate onomatopoiea attempt, filtered through half-remembered cognates. "Bathed" would be fine, and "laved," though ridiculous, is correct; but people go halfway between them and end up at what you do to make a baseball bat. I suspect the same is true with "husk" -- in the back of your head, you're thinking about husky as a word for thick (HUSKY PANTS!), and you're trying for "rasp" but not that word for some reason, and you end up in the midst of cornshucks.
crossedwires: toph punches katara to show her affection (bright as the rain in the palm of your h)

[personal profile] crossedwires 2010-07-28 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
It is totally a POV break! I was just thinking about this because I've been reading The Losers fic, and "the hacker", "the sniper", etc shows up all the time, and is very distracting. It doesn't pop me out of the story if it's about someone they don't know very well, like "the plumber fixed the sink," but I find this doesn't work so well when it's supposed to be a more intimate scene.

please tell me that surprise!songfic has never migrated beyond Dark Angel

Heh. I wrote a 3500 word story about Deadpool's ode to Springsteen, with surprise!lyrics everywhere, though I did warn for it in the summary & notes. :D

(no subject)

[personal profile] exhausted_pigeon - 2010-08-01 00:29 (UTC) - Expand
tzikeh: (stop)

The Zombie Hand of Rob Lowe

[personal profile] tzikeh 2010-07-28 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
You might enjoy this relatively infamous essay about many of these badfic errors. (Or, it was infamous for a few years; fandom on the internet has almost no memory.)

Good times.

Re: The Zombie Hand of Rob Lowe

[personal profile] tzikeh - 2010-07-28 20:37 (UTC) - Expand
merrily: Mac (Default)

[personal profile] merrily 2010-07-28 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Husked! I haven't run across that, but I immediately close windows when the first sentence suggests bad!fic, so perhaps I'm just not waiting around long enough.

My other favourite bad!fic thingy is when authors refer to characters by their full name, plus title, as if the readers have no idea who they are (Professor Remus Lupin, Dr. Rodney McKay). Bonus points if they follow up with a brief explanation of all events that have happened in canon so far. Aaaaaaaaaah.

(no subject)

[personal profile] zillah975 - 2010-07-29 18:01 (UTC) - Expand
twistedchick: watercolor painting of coffee cup on wood table (Default)

[personal profile] twistedchick 2010-07-29 12:10 am (UTC)(link)
POV breaks were very commonplace about 15 years ago or so; they're all over the place in Highlander and The Sentinel stories. Sometimes they can be useful, in longer works, but not every other paragraph. I suspect that some of the epithet use occurs when writers are trying to be omniscient and not doing it well.

(no subject)

[personal profile] twistedchick - 2010-07-29 01:14 (UTC) - Expand
devildoll: (my eyes!)

[personal profile] devildoll 2010-07-29 12:24 am (UTC)(link)
And then there is the eternal mystery of why they always think their male characters would totally wear silk shirts.
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)

[personal profile] lilacsigil 2010-07-29 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
The inner (romance novel) pirate emerges! Of course, I'd like to see the inner robot, ninja and monkey as well, but no, it's always pirates.

(no subject)

[personal profile] devildoll - 2010-07-29 01:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] devildoll - 2010-07-29 01:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] devildoll - 2010-07-29 01:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] devildoll - 2010-07-29 12:17 (UTC) - Expand
via_ostiense: Eun Chan eating, yellow background (Default)

[personal profile] via_ostiense 2010-07-29 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
the dark blonde transgenic

Hey, I learned a new word today! But which character would that description apply to, aside from the chimaeras in FullMetal Alchemist?

(no subject)

[personal profile] via_ostiense - 2010-07-29 01:03 (UTC) - Expand
st_aurafina: (Internet is sad)

[personal profile] st_aurafina 2010-07-29 12:41 am (UTC)(link)
Can't get rid of the mental image of a lathed penis. Intricately carved like a chair leg. Curse you, bad fanfic!
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)

[personal profile] lilacsigil 2010-07-29 12:57 am (UTC)(link)
Husked! That's a new and terrible phenomenon!
trinity_clare: (shakespeare hates your emo poems)

[personal profile] trinity_clare 2010-07-29 04:12 am (UTC)(link)
This post and its LJ version are making my night, let me tell you. :D (Oh, Max/Alec fic, the things I will do for you.)
midnitemarauder: (McT-SumEx Hermione Comma)

[personal profile] midnitemarauder 2010-07-29 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I've discovered that no matter how many times you post about how bad and awful and jarring inappropriately used epithets are, it doesn't matter. People still use them. Badly.

We talked about how I'm a lunatic and read all the fest submissions I receive when I mod, and man, the number of times where my fingers have not only itched, but my whole being has practically begged me to change them....

I think what boggles me more is that these people re-read what they write, their betas read what they write (although to be fair to betas, some might point it out but the author might stubbornly refuse to change it) and they still don't see it as a problem. I had one fic submitted once - it was 30+K long. I started counting the number of epithets the author used, and I reached 100 before I was even 1/3 of the way through the fic. I stopped counting and *headdesked* a lot.

(I did email the author about it, very politely mentioning how the abundance of epithets was jarring from a reader standpoint, while praising the story itself - it was a good story - but she either ignored it, or it went in one ear and out the other, because the next story they wrote was just as riddled with epithets. *sigh*)

(no subject)

[personal profile] midnitemarauder - 2010-07-30 01:07 (UTC) - Expand
bossymarmalade: kelly taylor & donna martin are judging you (no friend of mine would wear hypercolour)

[personal profile] bossymarmalade 2010-07-30 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I have a question! Is it a regional usage to say "bath" (as in "she proceeded to bath herself in warm milk") instead of "bathe"? Because I fly into rages when people "bath" or "breath", but for all I know it's perfectly acceptable usage for a number of folks and not just an attempt to make me go apeshit from their stylistic foolishness.

*waits with BAITED breath*

(no subject)

[personal profile] pensnest - 2010-08-01 21:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] bossymarmalade - 2010-08-04 16:02 (UTC) - Expand
tenlittlebullets: (Default)

[personal profile] tenlittlebullets 2010-07-31 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
ALSO on the 'that sounds painful, not sexy' list: stripping someone's cock.

This is how you know when it's time to step AWAY from the Catullus.

(My Latin teacher made us translate Catullus 58 aloud in class just to watch us squirm as we tried to guess what 'glubit' meant.)
ithiliana: (Default)

here from metafandom!

[personal profile] ithiliana 2010-07-31 10:15 pm (UTC)(link)
*sees your bad fanfic elements and raises you one*

I've taught creative writing for nearly 20 years.

These are the same badfic things that occur in damn near every beginning writer's work.

The. Same. Ones.

I have friends who read badfic for fun and giggles.

I cannot. I have to read badfic every year and be constructive and kind and helpful about it.

(Which is one reason I allow fanfic in my creative writing courses. Every new writer writes derivative fic, and I'll take fanfic in any fandom over the "teenage hero gets drunk has accident in car and dies/kills best friend and finds God" story that I get darn near every year.)
shayheyred: (Default)

[personal profile] shayheyred 2010-07-31 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought "husking" was some sort of sexual activity I wasn't aware of. I'm relieved to find it's just bad writing, hee.
janice_lester: Kirk and Spock: cetacean needed (cetacean needed)

here via metafandom

[personal profile] janice_lester 2010-07-31 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
"he husked" seems to be endemic in category romance novels (Mills & Boon/Harlequin). (Last time I checked, the writer's guidelines for M&B specifically privileged "ability to tell a gripping, emotional story" over ability to construct decent prose.) Its appearance in fanfic makes me wonder how many of us in fandom had those books as our first exposure to remotely naughty/sexy fiction. When I was 12, my best friend had a shelf full of the things, but I didn't see the appeal. I read a whole bunch when I was working on my MA, though, but I read them critically, which most people, and especially most kids, can't or won't do. I wonder what the influence of that kind of reading is on a person's prose. *shrugs*

The best explanation for why epithets are so irritating, from a technical standpoint, is that they're POV breaks. Dean wouldn't think of himself as "the green-eyed hunter" even if someone else might describe him that way; he certainly wouldn't think of Sam as "the other man" or "the taller man".

This is well put. I think it hints at a deeper issue: many folks have no clear understanding of POV. Which is understandable, I suppose--when you watch Star Trek, it's not really from any particular character's POV, right? So it's fairly natural to start writing in 3p omnisch to replicate that effect, I suppose. But many of us as readers want/assume everything to be in 3p close, so it can get painful for us being bounced around from head to head. I'm sure we've all read fics in which the POV changes between paragraphs, even between sentences. (In my view, that's fail even if you are attempting 3p omnish) I've also read fics where there's only one person in the scene and the author assures me it isn't from that person's POV--for instance, a fic in which Karl Urban went into a "gas station"'s "convenience store" to buy "soda" and "jerky". That sent me flying out of the story, because I simply cannot imagine a New Zealander raised in New Zealand thinking in those terms (should be petrol station, shop/superette, fizzy drink/name of fizzy drink, and huh? We don't have jerky). But as far as the author was concerned, she wasn't writing Karl's thoughts, she was only writing his actions, and objectively he was in the convenience store buying jerky. I'm not sure that's an invalid theoretical position... just that it's not what I want to read.

Your point about what people call each other is good. I think a lot of new writers miss some of the subtleties of the canons they're writing in. If you go far enough back into my fic vault, for instance, you will find a story I wrote from Leonard McCoy's POV in which he's called "Bones". Lots of "Bones thought" and "Bones said". Classic mistake for newish writers of TOS/Reboot Star Trek--only Kirk calls McCoy "Bones", and you'd need a pretty good reason to explain why McCoy would take to thinking of himself by this nickname only one person uses. Other things, like how "mister" is used in a military environment, are much harder to catch and I imagine most of us still get it wrong half the time.

I also think that many of us are heavily influenced by existing fanfic. There's no snobbish genre system in fanfic to tell us that the Mills & Boon equivalents are to be sneered at, there's only feedback... and a lot of folks just don't leave concrit or negative reviews in public (or at all). Add to that that many of the less polished, less awesome writers are the ones posting to huge arenas (The Pit) and to multiple LJ comms, and the situation often arises that the fic that most discerning readers would agree is badfic has five times as many glowing reviews as the fic most discerning readers would consider borderline genius. If you're a newish writer who sees that a particular long, purple, head-swapping fic is hugely popular, what are the chances that you're going to try and emulate it and produce an over-long, purple-prosed, POV-nightmare of a fic yourself? :-)

Re: here via metafandom

[identity profile] indyhat.livejournal.com 2010-08-01 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
If you're a newish writer who sees that a particular long, purple, head-swapping fic is hugely popular, what are the chances that you're going to try and emulate it and produce an over-long, purple-prosed, POV-nightmare of a fic yourself? :-)

THIS.

[identity profile] indyhat.livejournal.com 2010-08-01 12:40 am (UTC)(link)
Man, I <3 this post and its comments so hard.

SO with you on epithets. In my first real fandom this style quickly became fanon, and now you can't move without tripping over it. When I started writing, I did it too, because I didn't know any better and it was what other writers were doing; but now I just look on in despair. And I try pretty hard to get through a story without referring to the colour of anyone's eyes, hair, or skin.

Can I add 'fisting' to the list? I'm not talking about, you know, fisting in its intransitive sense. I'm talking X fisted Y's shirt (implication: in his hand(s), which is at least grammatically and stylistically legit, if overused). But what really gets me is the usage X fisted Y's cock. WTF? That and the apparent epidemic of cock-stripping, which I don't get at all unless it's meant to reflect the sort of thing you would do to a field weapon. (But even then, some disassembly is implied! And I don't think either party wants to go there unless we're in American Psycho territory.)

Yeah, if anyone ever works out how to break this news to other writers without being tarred and feathered and run out of town, please to be letting me know?

(no subject)

[personal profile] vito_excalibur - 2010-08-08 23:41 (UTC) - Expand
charamei: The second Doctor saves the world with fanfic! (DW2: Fanfic)

[personal profile] charamei 2010-08-01 10:09 am (UTC)(link)
Here via [community profile] metafandom.

OH GOD EPITHETS. I hate them so much* and my NaNo this year's set in classical Greece and I hadn't even thought about it until now but there should be at least some ahhhhh conundrum.

*In English prose. A good Homeric epithet has a function (to make the line fit the poetic meter) and is usually just pretty.

These sadly aren't unique to fanfic, though. I've seen them a lot in published fiction, especially children's (another genre where people assume it's not real writing and they don't need to try). If people are being exposed to it from that early an age nowadays, I suppose it's not too surprising that they grow up to replicate the same mistakes.
deifire: (Default)

[personal profile] deifire 2010-08-01 12:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes! They tend to show up quite a bit in published adult GLBT fiction as well, which can be crazy-making.

(no subject)

[personal profile] charamei - 2010-08-02 22:18 (UTC) - Expand

Page 1 of 2