Michael: founded Reckoning, journal of environmental activism. specifically not solarpunk because wanted wider scope

Gillian: struggles with writing in difficult times. activist work largely through security for demonstrations.

Marissa: activist work for years of supporting ICE detainees in Minnesota. when I tell people I'm from Minneapolis it hits differently now

Daniel: lot of community organization before publishing, some of transferred to being pain in the ass to publishing industry as much as possible

Elaine (E.C.): start by bringing out examples of works of fiction that have caused change in world.

Michael: I got nothing for this. two that are defaults are non-fiction: Silent Spring: which everyone uses and is a very old example. and Braiding Sweetgrass changed me

Gillian: A Modest Proposal, satire to puncture people's assumptions about appropriate to talk about re: rights of people. Hogfather, Terry Pratchett, little/big lies conversation. [*] don't know if one piece can push big changes, but can change ideas and how think about world. once temped at Harvard School of Public Health in 2016, always talking about: have you seen new episode of Westworld? people need things to escape to. I do recommend understanding that fiction is important and changes minds, but different than more direct action like filling a food pantry with food.

[*] ... HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—”

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

“So we can believe the big ones?”

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

(I apologize that my ebook copy-paste rendered that as all-caps and I don't have time to convert to small caps)

Marissa: people often looking for something as large-scale as Uncle Tom's Cabin. but people don't recognize that impact was very partial compared to the goals. if what you needed was to be convinced that Black people are human, then I'm glad that did it, but that's very short of the goal. writers need to look at works that bolster activists in their work, and recognize that drastic changes aren't the only kind.

Marissa cont'd: Winifred Holby, South Riding, Yorkshire in the 1930s. beautiful novel. but characters talking about friends in Germany that hadn't heard from. public did not rise up, but Holby's circles kept conversation going. so lots of examples but need to be interested in scales and willing to work on lots of scales.

Daniel: love this conversation. a lot of these things are incalculable. thinks that one thing is rise of independent work, beyond normal corporation media through different platforms. webtoons (small w), YouTube and then sometimes moving off, e.g., Dropout. much more open to radical work.

Daniel cont'd: Andor, recent Superman: to have mass-media works to be talking about genocide (which is fantasy but clearly Gaza) in way that cannot ignore is powerful. took a lot of work from activists on the ground. we are always part of a larger movement, writers/activists always think about selves as singular savior, which is bullshit

Elaine: Silent Spring opens with a narrative, story structure that brings reader into the silent spring that's the title of the book. (missed some stuff here, but basically) narrative is useful even when not fiction. also Black Beauty was specifically written as activism

(me: child me was deeply convinced I should be nice to horses by that book)

Elaine cont'd: example that makes angry which was not intended as activism: Harry Potter. is from NH therefore very privileged in US politics. decided should take advantage of that. 2020, would be sitting in online meetings and hearing 20-30-year old activists using terms like Dumbledore's Army and Room of Requirement, know that's why they're there. hates that JKR has been revealed as terf because betraying what people took away from it, banding together and rise up against greater force.

Gillian: I think a number of people who read those may have already had that seed of, I want to do something. these kind of books give people the language for it. book becomes popular because of what's in the zeitgeist. can seed things but people have feelings looking for place to put.

Michael: as writers, cannot set out create huge change. Silent Spring and Uncle Tom's Cabin, matches were already there. what Reckoning is, is encouraging not to produce the match but support in working toward. aiming for match seems doomed to frustrate, aim for individuals

Marissa: having conversation with new writer here who wanted to know how current should be in writing. encouraged to think broader, value in "here's what happened today" but also in "what I learned is". strange that thinking more broadly can have less perceptible impact. aches for W.H. Auden that could not stop Holocaust with his poetry, which he wanted to do. but poems opened up for people. and he did the work of activism, we can point to people he saved. big and small go together in weird ways

Gillian: 100% agree. circles been in, people used incrementalism as insult, don't want anything to actually change like establishment politicians. that's in mix but the glorious revolution that happens overnight needs to be seeded for decades beforehand.

Marissa: and when we see changes in the world we imagine more changes. as big an imagination this convention has, I don't think we have imagined how good things can be.

Elaine: Philip Zombardo, architect of Stanford Prison Experiment, which is also reference to Hannah Arendt's work on banality of evil, which rediscovered the whole thing. Zombardo grad student asked, what makes ordinary person a hero? article, "The Banality of Heroism", started Heroic Imagination Project that does hero training around the world, inspire ordinary people to be willing to move beyond being a bystander. specifically talked about story as giving people language that we can use to encourage to step up.

(me: the conclusions of the experiment specifically are more complex than I think the popular view is, which is not addressed to the panel, just a side note)

Daniel: struggle with: story is double-edged sword. SFF been overwhelmingly white supremacist for so long, also harmed people and justified genocide, our legacy. how do we reckon with, not to burden with guilt but to look it in the face. don't deserve to wield an implement that you won't fully look in the face or understand. if really honor power, have to take that responsibility so seriously and lovingly. let that move through me as I write, otherwise will not just fail, but hurt people.

Gillian: fiction as holding space for exploring ambiguity and morality that wouldn't do in real life. "I don't eat people." (see: forthcoming debut novel) so as horror writer, don't confuse fiction for parables. but make sure that writing people as full complicated people. sense of truth of world you are communicating to people. would be remiss if didn't mention Ring Shout by GoH P. Djèlí Clark which is wonderful and all about Birth of Nation releasing spell that causes white supremacist monsters to ravage the U.S., which is kind of what happened. propaganda but also (paraphrased) very well-crafted action movie. once take it apart, see all the pieces of e.g. Superman and modern action movies that have been built with it. also important cannot erase that people did protest movie. not like overall getting more moral.

Marissa: scariest thing as writer: there are things in your work that weren't in your brain consciously. some of most damaging things are things people didn't know they believed and were conveying, like who has worth. no substitute for fixing your heart. it will come out in your work. the people who love you will tell you, if you are honest, that your own flaws are there

(me: I'm guessing that fixing heart is a Twin Peaks/David Lynch reference)

Gillian: D.W. Griffith's next movie Intolerance got buried. seems to have been partly, no I'm a good person actually, so not learning and growing. but still buried. contrast Tamora Pierce recognizing that she'd messed up and would try to do better (I don't know this reference off the top of my head)

Daniel: context of world that we're putting our work into matters so much. hear about Founding Fathers, Lovecraft: "men of their time." no, super racist even at time. but also people were always fighting. that phrase means white men of time and not even all of them. flattening of history, have to let that go. and let go of crushes: "Lovecraft is not going to fuck us."

audience: works that have had largest effects, is emotion going for not hope but outrage (Silent Spring, Birth of Nation)?

Daniel: find outrage very hopeful, if not outraged, what's going on. work like 1984 and Brazil held up as great activist works but so depressing, nowhere to go from there, very counterproductive.

(me: why I wanted my seven books to be resistance in the face of oppression)

Daniel cont'd: job as writers, truth of story and how interacting with world and outrage of. Borges quote, paraphrased, taking outrage of time & turning into music. not negating but there's a beauty to it

(I think this may be from "The Art of Poetry":

To see in every day and year a symbol
of all the days of man and his years,
and convert the outrage of the years
into a music, a sound, and a symbol.

which is lovely and I'm glad to have found it regardless.)

Marissa: outrage is the loudest, and have culture that amplifies the most. cannot live in outrage, will damage you, we know this because people have been forced to do and see that damage in bodies. can choose to try and amplify other things that are more constructive. reads lots of 1930s women writers: Winifred Holby, Rose Macaulay, Naomi Mitchison, Sanora Babb; who were also were fighting and building. good tired from packing food or helping deportees, not like if I scroll.

Gillian: getting angry about social media checks a little box in your brain: I did something. building awareness is great, genuinely. is it the same as talking to your neighbor

Marissa: hear a lot from other activist-minded people and in minoritized groups: this is not my job; but I can take it on anyway.

Gillian: our system where work 40+ hours week, you're very tired: that's on purpose. figure out way to contribute anyway.

Elaine: Gailey's essay contains links

audience: Upton Sinclair's The Jungle needs to be reissued right now

audience: bouncing off of how perception of works changes over time, think something released now that will be seen as more or less important in future? R.F. Kuang gets a lot of backlash but think will be very important in future

Gillian: graphic novel memoir Gender Queer, Maia Kobabe, most challenged; thinks become classic because of criticism and wild accusations

audience: Maus, Art Spiegelman (also graphic novel memoir)

Gillain: Persepolis, Marjane Satrapi, recent death brought back, memoir. loves romances, do think very escapist, wonder how dark romance and romantasy will be looked at in context of deterioration of women's rights, thinks created to deal with feelings about helplessness within patriarchy

audience: do we need violence, what would Gandhi say

(me: @@4EVA [my eyes roll forever])

Marissa: you've popped off a rant. non-violence is a tactic, often very effective, but treating it as a tactic means there are skills that you have to teach, can't just send people out. what tools are you using from the toolkit

Gillian: recommend book This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed, Charles E. Cobb Jr.: civil rights movement, people did have to show up with guns to make sure got out alive

audience: recommends Naomi Kritzer's YA books, also Harry Potter and Hunger Games mentioned (somewhere I didn't make a note of); is it YA in particular?

Marissa: when targeting older middle grade and YA, that's audience first tasting wide-scale agency, has inherent power. maybe not works but audience

Gillian: for every of those works, there are hundreds of stories that didn't get same cultural power. but don't put all eggs in one basket, encourage teens to read widely

Elaine: David Hartwell quote, the golden age of SF is 12

(which the audience doesn't seem to have heard before given the reaction! amazing)

Gillian: Sailor Moon when was 12!

as we get the STOP sign:

Elaine: go out and make change!

Gillian: go out and join local organizations and talk to your neighbors!