Talk:Proto-punk

was or is?

i think it should be was a musical genre as no one makes proto punk songs anymore and you can't since punk existsAutograph84 (talk) 16:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't call proto-punk a genre but more a retroactive recognition of groups with different sounds/attitude/message that had some influence on early punk bands. Not sure there can be any proto-punk purity here. Footy0604 (talk) 14:54, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

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This article's main academic references are not about proto-punk, the only articles mentioning it are from AllMusic, anonymous original authors and random copywriters.

[Reliable Sources] Says that if there's no reliable source, then it should not have an article on it. Is AllMusic even a reliable source? I cannot find the author of the Proto-punk article on it. If we strip down anything definition-wise on this article from All-Music, the absolute mention of proto-punk almost disappears. HannahCritter (talk) 00:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

You started this account today and have made only four edits to two talk pages, and you want both articles deleted? With one Google search I found several reliable sources that discuss proto-punk explicitly, including Alchemy of Punk: Transmutation, Subversion, and Poetry in Punk Avant-Gardes, Punk Rock: Music Is the Currency of Life, My So-Called Punk: Green Day, Fall Out Boy, The Distillers, Bad Religion—How Neo-Punk Stage-Dived into the Mainstream, Screaming for Change: Articulating a Unifying Philosophy of Punk Rock, Rebels Wit Attitude: Subversive Rock Humorists, and PUNK: Loud Guitars, Louder Statements. Carlstak (talk) 03:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I have been lurking for a while.

my account’s age has nothing to do with what I said.

I do not pitch deleting both articles but rather the upbringing of sources that are unreliable. Thanks for bringing up new sources.

Why should we rely on the unreliable sources in the current article rather than using the excellent examples in literature that you sent?

I think it’s a step to the right direction if we move towards reliable sources.

On a personal note, Death as a band sounds pretty punk to me, what is the source that calls it proto-punk? HannahCritter (talk) 04:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Split the article to countries

Most are from late 60s and 70s. I will add nihilist spasm band to canada and add os mutantes for Brazil as well as more German sources and the Finnish early punk scene (Suomipunk) with Sleepy Sleepers and Vitranean Aradicus77 (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

I don't think this was an improvement. In the old version there was a clear narrative from "Origins" onwards, discussing the spread of the Detroit sound which was what influenced all the major founding punk bands. Now it's a series of fragemented subheaders, some of which only have one or two sentence. I also think this might open the article up to being WP:BLOATED in the future, as it leaves space for the addition of any early bands who have been called similar to punk, even if they didn't actually have an influence on punk (there are many articles like this). Issan Sumisu (talk) 20:28, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

The thing is proto-punk has 2 meanings historically. There is the use of "proto-punk" as Lester Bangs puts it where its the period of 60s garage rock music that was originally just known as "punk rock" before it came to be known as a contemporary music movement. Then there is the definition that came a bit later where "proto-punk" referred to this kind of hard rock / glam / pub rock / Detroit style of music that was closer in style to first wave '77 punk. Then there is the catch-all meaning that you cited I'm not sure where it came from where "proto-punk" is used to delineate anything from any era that sounds like punk rock and came before 1976 or shares the attitudes or spirit of punk before 1976. This final definition is the most contentious because most of the bands that get lumped into that where also just "punk". Ramones formed in 74, the whole NYC scene began before 76 and many of the first punk scenes like those which housed Pere Ubu, Devo, Rocket From the Tombs, Dead Boys, Saints... etc. were before 1976.

Also sorry for replying late I'm not sure why I get no notifications for talk page replies. I could revert the edit but the old article also seemed a bit bordering on WP:OR in the way it asserted the "origins" of proto-punk were after the Stooges, though all the bands mentioned prior to that are also called "proto-punk". How can there be origins for proto-punk beginning in the 70s? Unless one is of the camp I've seen people call pre-Detroit and garage rock stuff like Ritchie Valens and The Phantom "proto-protopunk" which to me was just always adding more confusion to the fire and there probably is sources using the term to be fair but probably would be undue.

TL;DR: My intention with adding the split into countries was to make it more general how proto-punk was a phenomenon accross the world rather than it primarily emerging through Detroit, outlining the influence of Detroit punk is just describing the early years of punk rock itself not really proto-punk. Think the sources should mention "proto-punk" explicitly to keep the article on topic and not be a regurgitation of the "canon" idea of how punk rock started. I think we need more sources in etymology with writers and musicologists discussing the term "proto-punk" for the article to be more helpful. Aradicus77 (talk) 20:00, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

I totally understand the intentionality, and it makes total sense. It's not WP:OR because the Detroit bands are overwhelming discussed as the point at which punk begins to take shape, for example, this is from Screaming for Change: Articulating a Unifying Philosophy of Punk Rock: Although Velvet Underground served as an important influence, proto-punk is largely a term used to describe bands that followed in the wake of the first wave of garage rock. More specifically, it is a label normally reserved for bands such as MC5 and the Stooges that sprung out of Detroit, Michigan, and its surrounding areas. This source also articulates what you said about the two definitions of proto-punk, calling the spreado of the Detroit sound as basically proto-punk "proper", and you can see this when looking into any of the post-76 bands influences. Issan Sumisu (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

Yeah this would be a perfect source to add to etymology and first expand the various definitions writers have for proto-punk. It would make the original version starting with Detroit make more sense then. Aradicus77 (talk) 18:14, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

It already is cited a few times throughout what was the post-Detroit section for that purpose. Issan Sumisu (talk) 18:26, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

Although Velvet Underground served as an important influence, proto-punk is largely a term used to describe bands that followed in the wake of the first wave of garage rock. More specifically, it is a label normally reserved for bands such as MC5 and the Stooges that sprung out of Detroit, Michigan, and its surrounding areas. These bands, and most certainly the Stooges, broke down the widely shared illusion that musicians had to be talented. The Stooges' amateurish compositions and inability to correctly play their instruments rendered it fairly irrelevant whether it was the band or the audience who figured up on stage...<br>Although largely an American phenomenon, proto-punk can also be found in Britain. In Britain, however, it went under different names, and it is commonly referred to as either glam rock or pub rock. Notable pub rock bands would include Eddie and the Hot Rods, the Stranglers, Dr. Feelgood, the 101er's (Joe Strummer's first band), as well as Kilburn and the High Roads... In addition to the Michigan bands MC5, the Prime Movers, and the Stooges, other pre/proto-punk bands from the American Midwest have also earned their place in the chronicles of history. The vibrant pre-punk scene in Cleveland, Ohio, produced such bands as Pere Ubu and the Electric Eels, which have been highly influential to other bands of the era. On the east coast, and more specifically in New York, bands like Television, the New York Dolls, and the Ramones wreaked musical havoc in their respective neighborhoods.

Not sure if it's just this page or there's more pages I'll read through now but this doesn't really (in my eyes) invalidate the idea of having the sections be split rather than reframing it to be focused on Detroit. Since it is still just 1 source, but I agree with the definition completely it just feels this article needs a revamp like I said with more opinions on the definition of proto-punk and expanding with that. The source also made mention of UK proto-punk being "glam rock" which is something that I had tried to add before (stylistic origins infobox since glam rock is one of the main moments where first wave punk was starting to really come into its own) Aradicus77 (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

Prime "proto-punk" acts like the Modern Lovers and Peter Hamill also have no mention in this article yet which is a big omission. Aradicus77 (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

Like I said, it isn't just one source, the majority of sources on the topic of proto-punk draw it as beginning at the MC5 and the Stooges. Some do mention the Velvet Underground in the same sentence, but the clarification, noted in Screaming for Change is important, as it is a peer reviewed academic sources, not just a commericial text:

• Jim DeRogatis Let it blurt: The life and times of Lester Bangs, America’s greatest rock critic What Lester called the "proto-punk" bands joined groups such as the Velvet Underground, the Stooges, the MC5, the Modern Lovers, and the New York Dolls in what was emerging as an alternative canon.

• The rough guide to punk by Al Spicer describes this throughout but it's hard to pick a specific quote, because its kind of spread throughout the whole book.

• Destroy: The Definitive History of Punk by Alvin Gibbs states The New York Dolls, the Velvet Underground, and Iggy Pop and the Stooges constitute the proto-punk rock triumvirate - The Big Three. These bands are mentioned as heavy influences time and time again

It's worth mentioning that the spread is totally verifiable through primary sources: for Better Lovers here is an interview clarifying I wasn't into like Quicksilver Fucking Messenger Service and all that hippy-dippy shit. I hated that shit. I liked the Stooges and the Velvet Underground and the MC5, that was what I listened to in high school. That was all I listened to. And, the band also generally mentioned alongside MC5 and the Stooges is NYD, who in Too Much Too Soon: The New York Dolls it is stated that their style was entirely influenced by the Stooges and MC5. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:26, 24 January 2026 (UTC)

From what I'm hearing in that DeRogatis source it seems he is using Lester's definition of "proto-punk" as garage rock groups per Lester Bangs definition as the previous line he references Pushing Too Hard and Count Five. So the sentence is actually saying something like "the mid-60s garage rock groups joined groups such as the VU, Stooges, MC5, Modern Lovers, NYD to form an alternative canon..."

But yeah these are good sources to add to etymology still to flesh out the different types of definitions. Aradicus77 (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2026 (UTC)

american place names should be edited to indicate they are from america

I can see in this article that american place names just list towns instead of a place, country like format and are listed besides country names

That can cause confusion with people unfamiliar with american towns and other countries

I would edit it myself but I'm unsure of how to make it read properly so I'm leaving this as a suggestion to someone who knows how to fix these errors in the article in a way that will read properly Nicholasjosey (talk) 00:38, 14 April 2026 (UTC)