Talk:Pastoral

Old Cleanup Archive

Taken from the old Cleanup entry:

• Pastoral - not very encyclopedic; needs subheadings; hard to follow; poor flow. --tomf688^(talk) 00:09, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Pastoral died in the 18th Century?

So, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard, Adonais, and In Memoriam aren't pastoral elegies working fairly conventionally within the genre as constructed by Milton? Am I missing something?

Revisions

Swapped Wordsworth's name with Alexander Pope. Wordsworth's (along with Ambrose Phillips) pastoral poetry represented a break from the Virgilian tradition, not a continuation of it, around the turn of the century. --JH 69.236.37.131 10:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Sections removed from article

Interesting but perhaps fails "undue weight" policy:

"Other uses of the pastoral setting" A harsher note was struck in Girolamo Fracastoro's 1530 poem Syphilis, sive Morbus Gallicus ("Syphilis, or the French Disease"), in which Syphilus ("pig-lover"), a typical pastoral name for a shepherd, is stricken by the disease syphilis that takes its name from Fracastoro's poem. Fracastoro's poem contains the first recognisable description of the symptoms of syphilis (today, few contemporary physicians announce their discoveries in verse, pastoral or otherwise). Fracastoro has Syphilus the shepherd catch it for having offended Apollo, a somewhat unusual method of infection. Fracastoro's Latin poem was much admired in its day; it was translated into English heroic couplets by Nahum Tate:

Fracastorius warns the shepherd Syphilus to drink only from a pure fountain, as a dog pollutes the stream: engraving by Jan Sadeler I after Christoph Schwartz

A shepherd once (distrust not ancient fame)

Possest these Downs, and Syphilus his Name;

Some destin'd Head t'attone the Crimes of all,

On Syphilus the dreadful Lot did fall.

Through what adventures this unknown Disease

So lately did astonisht Europe seize,

Through Asian coasts and Libyan Cities ran,

And from what Seeds the Malady began,

Our Song shall tell: to Naples first it came

From France, and justly took from France his Name. . .

Pastoral paintings, likewise, were typically used to give the respectability of the classics to paintings of nymphs, swains, satyrs, and other mostly human legendary creatures frolicking in neatly tended hills and woods in a state of perpetual déshabillé. In contemporary times, it is a whole genre of sexual fantasy that fell almost completely out of fashion.

See also: Et in Arcadia ego, the end of Don Quixote.

Another section removed (temporarily?)

Pastoral literature in English

A work can contain many pastoral elements mixed with other genres. Sir Philip Sidney's Arcadia, though taking place among shepherds in Arcadia, features the royal family, who have retired to the countryside for peace, and centers on the romances of princes and princesses. The fourth act of Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale features a pastoral setting, but the focus is on the apparent shepherdess, Perdita, who is actually a foundling and a princess, and the setting is intruded on by her princely lover Florizel, and by his disapproving father the king. Sir Calidore, the Knight of Courtesy in Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queen finds that the Blatant Beast is unknown among the shepherds, but he himself comes from outside, and the shepherdess Pastorella whom he loves is revealed at the end to be a foundling, the daughter of a knight and lady. Indeed, many foundlings in literature are taken up by the pure and simple folk of the pastoral, but are themselves of higher birth and from civilization, to which they return at the story's end. Similarly, the heroes and heroines of fairy tales written by the précieuses often appeared in pastoral settings, but these figures were royal or noble, and their simple setting does not cloud their innate nobility. In modern fantasy works, the setting is often pastoral.

If the above passage is meant to imply that a work is not entirely pastoral because the protagonists are noble foundlings, it certainly needed to be excised. The plot of Daphnis and Chloe hinges entirely upon the eponymous characters' status as noble foundlings. I believe that many other pastoral prose romances of the 1st and 2nd century contained the same plot device. Sidney and Shakespeare were working out of this entirely pastoral tradition. 97.91.191.87 (talk) 06:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)MOB

References

Concert Champêtre

I believe there should be some mention here that even the Louvre (the museum that now houses this work) attributes this work to Titian.Shane.Bell (talk) 09:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

too western?

There are pastoral traditions outside of Europe - notably the Krishna story in Hindu religion/mythology which is the dominant theme of Hinduism, culminating in the Bhagavad Gita. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.173.184.35 (talk) 17:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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"Religious" section?

Several of the Bilblical articles link to this page but it does not include a section on "Pastoral" in the religious context. Elmorian (talk) 03:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, because Christ is referred to as The Good Shepherd.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

That is one aspect of it. I have added the section with some brief excerpts and links to from associated articles. Trying not to add more than is needed for context, as "pastoral letter" has its own article, but I feel addressing the overlap will make navigation easier and provides space for future expansion.Elmorian (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Edit Request

Pastoral is a Canadian novel written by André Alexis which offers a modern take on the pastoral set in a fictional town in southern Ontario. The book was inspired by Beethoven's Sixth Symphony also known as the Pastoral Symphony.

Notes

1. New editor here, apologies if this request is a bit of a mess! Pointers appreciated. 2. Reason for request: I believe this novel offers a contemporary example of the continuing tradition of pastorals with a strong reference to the original genre and an interesting cross reference between the music and literature. The best place for it is possibly under the subheading: Post-pastoral, urban pastoral and other variants 3. Minor conflict of interest; I have met the author, but don't have a strong personal relationship.

References

• Hingston, Michael (2014). "Book Review: A man out of time: How author André Alexis is reclaiming the pastoral", Globe and Mail. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/books-and-media/book-reviews/a-man-out-of-time-how-author-andre-alexis-is-reclaiming-the-pastoral/article17502796/

Emflu (talk) 18:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Not Done. Inclusion would appear promotional. The wording above appears to be of a promotional nature and the inclusion of a single specified work would seem undue. If you would like to provide a list of works that fall under that general type of fiction then please go ahead, but detailing a single example is inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you help me understand how that might differ from this line in the current article?

Charles Siebert's Wickerby: An Urban Pastoral describes a man who splits his time between a gritty Brooklyn apartment, where the night is filled with the sounds of pigeons, starlings, and youth gangs shouting, and driving to rural Quebec to squat in an abandoned, tumbledown cabin in rural Quebec.

Is it in the way my suggested inclusion was worded?

Just to reiterate; I'm not actually affiliated with the author in any way, just think it's relevant novel and want to clarify this point so I understand what inclusions to suggest/not to suggest in the future. Emflu (talk) 19:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that shouldn't have been in there either. Now removed. Thank you for pointing that out. Axad12 (talk) 20:29, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Pushkin

Suggested inclusion for the poetry section to diversify coverage:

Pushkin frequently used the pastoral form in his poetry. Examples include Reason and Love, written in the tradition of French pastoral poetry and The Singer.

References

• Pushkin, Alexander (Edited and Translated by Roger Clarke) (2013). "Love Poems, Alma Classics.

Emflu (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Emflu: WP:BEBOLD and do it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:00, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

@PiotrusThank you for the encouragement! Done. Emflu (talk) 00:56, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

@Emflu Thinking about your example, I wonder if The Crimean Sonnets would qualify. Need to check sources, I guess :) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:01, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

Split?

I find it strange to discuss literature and music in one article. Perhaps a split is warranted? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:59, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree! Emflu (talk) 00:56, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

I would support a split. Let me know if and how I can help. ThaesOfereode (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

Oppose I don't find it at all strange to discuss literature and music, and art, in one article. Both are concerned with evoking the same mood and themes. As the article shows, the music and art habitually represent the literature, which is certainly the dominant partner. What about the currently highly rudimentary coverage of the visual arts? But the "Religious usage" section does not belong here at all - it should get its own article, or just be junked. Or perhaps just added to Pastor. If there was a split where would these sections go? Johnbod (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

@Johnbod @ThaesOfereode Some cross-referencing makes sense, but fooian literature and fooian music are generally separate concepts. You know, Renaissance music vs Renaissance literature, LGBTQ literature vs LGBTQ music, etc. Granted, parent concepts are notable as well, and if you say this article should be kept and should contain sections on literature and music - fine. My point is that we need separate subarticles on Pastoral literature and Pastoral music. Perhaps pastoral art too, but that section here is so underdeveloped splitting it now would be counterproductive.

And yes, I'd support removing the religion section.

And I'd also nuke the effectively unreferened / OR theory section too while we are at it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:19, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I would agree with that. "Pastoral" is more than a little broad and has the potential to spill out into other pastoral topics outside the artistic focus here (e.g., history of shepherding). I might suggest making this page a redirect, especially if we can get enough sources to stand pastoral art up on its own. I'm happy to mill through "what links here" articles to assign each to one or the other when that occurs. ThaesOfereode (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is all complete nonsense! This article is (once we lose the religion section) entirely about the concept in the arts, which has notoriously little to do with actual pastoralism or sheep farming. There has been a considerable critical interest in the subject over the last century or more, as well summarised at the start of the "pastoral theory" section. Unfortunately whoever added this (very likely as part of post-graduate academic study I'd say) put all his references in the summary at the start of the section, and only added specific citations to quotes therafter, leading of course to Piotrus to call it "effectively unreferened [sic]/ OR". Most of the books cited have "pastoral" in their titles, if you bothered to look. On his earlier point, many articles on specific aspects of artistic subject matter combine the major art forms, as with Crucifixion in the Arts, Passion of Jesus etc, and very many articles on figures from classical mythology, more modern folklore and so on. If you knew this area better, you'd know that. Johnbod (talk) 21:34, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

Not sure why the cannons are out on this one; we're just discussing possibilities at this point. I freely admit I jumped the gun with my last comment, but I don't think it's "complete nonsense". You can disagree with us without the superlatives. You're right that the question should about whether "pastoral" should be split up by medium, not whether "pastoral" is focused on the arts. Tracking back to Piotr's original question: do you not agree that there's enough on pastoral literature as a whole to justify its own page? Just because other pages do things one way doesn't mean that necessarily has to apply here; Gothic fiction, Gothic rock, Gothic architecture, and Gothic art all have their own pages. Also worth pointing out that a separate Passion (music) article is linked in the Passion of Jesus example you used.

By my estimate, the literature section is about 3,400 of the ~6k words here, which puts it comfortably within the margins of most pages, so it's not like we're making a stub here. And it's not like it would be removed from this page entirely either, just that a larger, more comprehensive discussion of the topic could be hosted there while it could be mostly summed up in a few paragraphs here. I agree that the "Pastoral theory" section was probably earnestly cited by an inexperienced editor. A basic search for "pastoral theory" on my end mostly comprised approaches to being a priest/pastor/etc. or dealt with scrupulosity in OCD patients, so presumably it was someone who knew the topic fairly well. If the topic of this page is going to be art, I'm not sure where this fits. Maybe here, but I don't know. ThaesOfereode (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

Indeed. And on that note, we already have some related subarticles, namely Pastoral science fiction _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:54, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

The topic of this page has always been art, as the lead clearly states. "Pastoral theory" is not the best title for that section, and I'm not surprised a google search turns up tin cans - "Critical approaches" would be better. You're not sure where those tin cans fit - well, nowhere in this article, that's for sure. Are you proposing to write the "larger, more comprehensive discussion of the topic" in literature? No, I didn't think so. Size is not the issue in whether a split is a good idea; the integrity of the subject is. Johnbod (talk) 03:21, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

• Since we all agree on this, I've moved the religious section to Pastor where I think it fits well. Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

  It's nice to agree on something productive. Regarding the Pastoral theory section, the problem is that the references, even if we AGF that they are not just name/title dropped, are general - to books without page ranges (which I am sure you noticed as you "bothered to look", surely, to quote you). And such generic references are next to useless, little better than AGFing content without references. "Trust me, Marx and Weber said that somewhere in their books". That said, we can just tag the refs with {{page needed}} and move on, I guess. The structure is not terrible (paragraph per source cited, mentioning it). That said, the history of that section is weird. It was created in 2011 but written by several editors, each of whom was only briefly active and only on this very page - they have 2-6 edits total. Looks like an outcome of an educational assignment from the dark ages of wiki, with nobody disclosing it here. The presumed students did not create a userpage or made any edit to allow to identify the course (not that it would help, I doubt their instructor would help clean up, and of course pinging them is likewise pointless). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

  Another issue with the section is that is missing probably over 20 very obvious links to works mentioned, which someone could usefully add. Johnbod (talk) 17:21, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

Globalize tag

This was added in 2022 in this drive-by edit. It is true that the article entirely covers Western artistic traditions, but I think that is how the term is mostly used, I think. Searches such as "Chinese pastoral poetry" certainly produce results, but they don't seem to relate to quite the same thing, covering the beauty of landscapes and weather in general, rather than idealized shepherds and their girlfriends (perhaps Chinese agricultural workers are harder to idealize). In India I think cows rather than sheep are the focus, & imagery generally tied to specific religious figures, above all Krishna. And so on. I'm inclined to think that the current focus of the article reflects the sources & is not a problem worth tagging. Thoughts? Johnbod (talk) 16:51, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

Well, I am of two minds. The problem is common, but the article should be globalized. A quick glance on pl wiki article suggests that it is Polish-centric, which also means there is Polish pastoral tradition that is of course totally ignored here. Thanks to a recent edit by @Emflu we now have passing mention of Russia, but the article is still 99% focused on the Western stuff. I am not familiar with Asian traditions much, and frankly sometimes there is false friend equivalence - without doing more research I wouldn't even be sure if Polish or Russian traditions are distinct or not (ditto for Asian). But to cut this short, a lot of articles on en wiki, this one included, are about Western (mostly English...) body of literature, and happily ignore the traditions of other countries; the further we go from the West, the worse it is. Fixing this is of course abysmally hard, as soem traditions are also mostly not discussed in English scholarly literature. (And you may be surprised I do know that for a fact, since I've penned some academic work on this. Ex. see klerykal fiction which cites my work. But I digress.). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:17, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

In my opinion, ideally, there's an interesting perspective that can be gained with the information that a more globalized article would bring. For example, the only pastoral Chinese poem I'm familiar with idealizes the Chinese farmer as a hard working, under appreciated laborer that supports the nation. Its survival and popularity is almost certainly politically related.

Perhaps the confusion here is the difference between the etymology of the word "pastoral" and what the word has come to mean. As I understand it, the word comes from the Latin for Shepard, which implies a much more specific, and Western angle. The beginning of this article appears to endorse that. However, a widely accepted evolution of the meaning of the word now includes "rustic, simple life" in general, which broadens the scope and therefore, I think, merits the inclusion of global sources.

I.e. Merriam Webster's definition of pastoral literature specifically:

"a literary work (such as a poem or play) dealing with shepherds or rural life in a usually artificial manner and typically drawing a contrast between the innocence and serenity of the simple life and the misery and corruption of city and especially court life"

Cambridge:

"A pastoral piece of art, writing, or music represents the pleasant and traditional features of the countryside:"

Both quite broad and non-Western specific, no? Emflu (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

The MW is much less broad, & is what the term usually means in criticism, and in this article. I don't really agree that " a widely accepted evolution of the meaning of the word now includes "rustic, simple life" in general". Have you any sources for this change? There has always been plenty of literature, & some art, that takes a more realistic view of the peasant life, which is what your Chinese poem sounds like, and this is not called "pastoral". Being a young shepherd has probably always been a softer option than growing crops, allowing more time to dally with girls, if any can be found. Johnbod (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Granted, my Chinese example is not ideal and my knowledge of Chinese literature prevents me from being an ideal editor for such a component on this page. Here’s a better, and scholarly example:

https://webofproceedings.org/proceedings_series/ART2L/IWACLE%202018/IWACLE18032.pdf

I’d also argue the MW definition is wider than shepherds, as it specifically mentions “or rural life”.

I’ll add the OED in evidence:

II.3.a.

1584–

A literary work portraying *rural life or* the life of shepherds, esp. in an idealized or romantic form.

I.2.a.

1566–

Of poetry, music, pictures, etc.: portraying rural life or characters, esp. in an idealized or romantic manner; bucolic.

In the interest of fairness, I’ll note the encyclopedia Brittanica definition is much more narrow.

Of course, it goes without saying Western civilizations are not the only ones with shepherds and shepherd culture.

Signs point to me to merit further research. Emflu (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

We have Fields and Gardens poetry and Shanshui poetry, but neither of these really fit "pastoral". I'm familiar with their versions in painting, which are closely related, & they mainly cover the usual Chinese literati types, stuck out in the sticks. Johnbod (talk) 02:00, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Images

Some of the images don't reflect the subject well. The lead "Pastoral landscape" surely uses the term in an agricultural sense only. That is followed by a pair of Bacchanalian scenes, from a related but different tradition. Oddly, Commons doesn't seem to group pastoral images at all. I'll be making changes, but comments are welcome. Johnbod (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

Categories

We only have Category:Pastoral operas and Category:Pastoral science fiction but not a head cat Category:Pastoral literature, or Category:Pastoral art or Category:Pastoral. More work for those keen to help. Johnbod (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

So I've set up Category:Pastoral literature, or Category:Pastoral, but the former especially needs lots of populating. Johnbod (talk) 17:58, 4 April 2026 (UTC)