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[personal profile] doug
How facts backfire seems to do a reasonable job of summarising the literature on political ignorance: the finding that voters (mainly in the US) overwhelmingly (a) don't know much about politics, but (b) are convinced they do, and (c) are not only resistant to contrary evidence, but can even end up even more convinced of their erroneous views when you present them with corrections. So much so not terribly new news to me, although it does gather it together nicely.

The thing that stuck out for me was one particular study, summarised thusly:
A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong.
.That's pretty startling. I'm clearly better informed than most of the people in this research - I could readily answer most of the questions that they set, despite them being about the US, not the UK. In fact I'd be rather happy to find that I was factually right about 90 percent of political things - although I'm probably underestimating my likely score here since the relevant one would be UK-focused. (The sorts of questions they're talking about are pretty basic: names of party leaders, local representatives and their affiliation, who has a majority in which part of the legislature, and so on, plus basic information about current political issues.) So I'm almost certainly in their 'politically sophisticated thinkers' demographic, and so their research suggests that I'm really very resistant to correcting my beliefs where they're wrong.

That bothers me. I like to think I'm reasonably open to changing my mind about things, and particularly about facts (as opposed to moral principles) when I get more information. But this study suggests I'm not.

I have managed to track down the study in question - I think it's C. S. Taber and M. Lodge, "Motivated Skepticism in the Evaluation of Political Beliefs", 2006, American Journal of Political Science, 50(3), 755 - 769, Published Online: 21 Jun 2006. Alas, there seems to be an ongoing issue with the authentication system (which has been bothering me for a few weeks now, really must bother some of my librarian chums about it) and I can't get hold of it.

Anyway. It seems quite likely that I'm not only incorrect about some important political facts, but would be pretty resistant to being corrected. It's easier to admit you're wrong in front of people you know and trust, so you folk could help me out here.

What political facts do you think I'm wrong about?

I'm not so much interested in fundamental moral orientations (obviously, most of you aren't pacifists or anarchists) but specific, verifiable facts. So, for instance, I'm not looking for an abstract argument against anarchism, but I would be interested - or rather, I like to imagine that I'd be properly interested - in good evidence running counter to my relevant and strongly held belief that industrial production in Catalonia went up, not down, in 1936 when the mode of organisation of labour shifted to a much more decentralised, bottom-up one.

Here to help is a list of tenfourteen things (I tried to do ten off the top of my head, on the slightly-spurious grounds that at least one is likely to be wrong if the 90% stat is right, and rattled off too many). These are facts that are very relevant to current political issues that I believe to be true.
- The UK is facing a very, very large deficit, both in annual PSBR terms and cumulative total debt terms; this is largely the result of the recession, but contributed to by substantial deficits over the last ten years or more.
- The bank bailout did substantially increase the UK's national debt, but also added substantially to national assets; the net position for the taxpayer in the medium/long term is uncertain but reasonable guesses suggest a modest profit
- Very bad social consequences will flow if the UK's annual deficit is not substantially reduced in the medium to long term.
- Spending cuts of the magnitude under discussion (25% in many Departments) are (a) unprecedented, (b) spectacularly painful, and (c) almost impossible to deliver in practice
- Substantial, across-the-board spending cuts (even of a much more realistic, deliverable magnitude) will all-but-unavoidably tend have the largest bad effect on the least well off and the most vulnerable.
- Support for the LibDems has almost halved since the election, with the balance going slightly more to the Tories than Labour.
- Inflation in the UK is over the Bank of England's target, at around 3% (CPI -about 5% on RPI), and has been for months if not years; interest rates are pegged around 0.5% and have been for years; so real interest rates have been negative for quite some time, like a year or more.
- The US is technically out of recession but the economy is growing very slowly, and facing prolonged high unemployment.
- The Eurozone is in all sorts of economic trouble, facing profound fiscal and monetary challenges that are probably even worse than the UK's.
- On a timescale of decades, greenhouse gases are increasing dramatically in the atmosphere, which is causing increasing overall warming of the planet, which has the effect of changing the climate, and this change (a) is largely driven by human action and (b) can - at least in principle - be mitigated by human action.
- There is considerable scope to generate more of our (the UK's) electricity from renewable sources, but not to generate the majority of it that way.
- Using the tax and benefits systems to reduce income inequality has direct positive outcomes on society.
- People on substantially lower incomes than I am (a) have to do much more form-filling to get the benefits they're entitled to, (b) find each individual form a lot harder to deal with than I find the ones I have to do, and (c) find the level of income instability caused by errors in the process harder to deal with than I do.
- Persistent social problems like poverty, long-term unemployment, problematic substance dependency, abuse, and homelessness are complex in origin and are not fixable with simple measures, although there are many interventions known to help which are not as widely deployed as they could be.

So what do you think? Or rather, what do you know? Correct me if I'm wrong!

Be warned: I deliberately picked 'facts' I'm quite strongly attached to, so I'll take some convincing. I'd be interested to know if you disagree with them, but you'll have to do a bit better than that to get me to change my mind. No need to limit yourselves to the ones in the list, by the way - if you can think of other things you think I think, but you think I am wrong to think, that'd be good too. I think.

Date: 2010-08-03 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vinaigrettegirl.livejournal.com
Insofar as I know (not following % of support for any given party as it's too fudgy and handwavy a number) this seems sensible. A note on persistent social problems, though: they're as old as humankind, so their origins are, I think, irrelevant. There has never been a time when domination and submission as a relational paradigm has been inoperative, alas.

But no challenge on the facts you've outlined, so far as my knowledge runs. Disclaimer: I Am Not Benjamin Jowett.

Date: 2010-08-03 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moral-vacuum.livejournal.com
Unfortunately, I find very little - indeed nothing - to pick an argument with here! Although on the renewables point, I'd say that it is not possible to generate the majority of UK energy needs today, with the current technologies and the costs attached to early adoption. However I wouldn't rule it out in the longer term, certainly if we manage to get energy storage sorted out.

Date: 2010-08-04 09:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com
I'm going to quibble on this one:

"- The UK is facing a very, very large deficit, both in annual PSBR terms and cumulative total debt terms"

That "very, very large" is emotive and would very much depend what you are comparing it to. I'd agree that it needs reducing, but not that it's so large that really harsh emergency measures are called for (and that's ignoring the whole Keynesian cutting government spending now not being a great thing to do argument).

I think it'd be informative to look at comparative deficits for different countries over time, while also considering issues such as if the debt is mainly in the countries own currency (Greece's problem since they can't devalue even a little) and the maturity spread.

Now if you'd said "The UK has a structural deficit that needs to be reduced over the longer term", I'd agree with you, but that's not really the tone of your statement or most commentary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jul/04/osborne-markets-fiscal-recovery
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/27/william-keegan-emergency-budget-george-osborne

"The Keynesian revolution overturned the prevailing Treasury view of the 1930s that the budget should be balanced even in the face of recession or depression. The Treasury view seems to have been brought back into circulation by Osborne. Most people accept that it was misguided in the early 1930s, when, at the time Neville Chamberlain introduced his deflationary budget of 1932, the national debt amounted to 177% of gross domestic product and debt interest was absorbing as much as 40% of public expenditure. By comparison, the latest Red Book puts debt at 61.9% of GDP in 2010-11 and debt interest at 6.3% of total public expenditure. Yet the way that Osborne goes on about it, you would think things were more like the 1930s."

I think that puts things in perspective.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Good points, and the correction in tone is important. Thank you.

We do have a structural deficit that needs to be reduced over the longer term. We also have an enhanced cyclical deficit thanks to the previous administration's abandonment of Keynesian principle.

I fear the comparison with the 1930s is apposite, though, and that there's a risk of cuts eating in to the very-weak recovery, triggering long years of stagnation and even deflation and depression. (Though less of a risk than in the US.)

I also think that the only positive way out is growth: given that cuts of the size being talked about are both undeliverable politically and spectacularly painful, it's way, way better sense to make growing the economy take the lion's share of the effort in cutting the structural deficit.

The other option is inflation, which is unpalatable but less so than the alternatives. Mild to moderate inflation is not so bad - I'm secretly pleased that CPI is running above target consistently.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com
I agree with every word in that. Which is why I think the language used in describing the debt is so important.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Curiously I was just thinking of the 1930s experience where (at least if I understand the "pop history" version correctly) FDR spent his way out of recession where Britain remained mired. Of course this may be exactly the sort of "picking your example" thinking that Doug originally posted to avoid.

I understand there's also some trickiness here about how you measure debt. Do you count what the government has borrowed or what the government and the people together have borrowed? My loose understanding is that our national (government) debt is exacerbated by the huge amount of private debt our citizens have. Unfortunately it's at this point my understanding of economics tails off into "debt to who" and "does it matter" and "wasn't it cool in Fight Club when all those skyscrapers blew up"?

Date: 2010-08-04 10:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
I was meaning to restrict myself to Government debt in the points I made, but my understanding is that the large amount of private debt - individual and corporate - is really not helping.

My pop-history version of the 1930s has a lot of US Government actions basically proving Keynesianism - Hoover balanced the budgets after the Wall Street Crash, everything went (or stayed) pear-shaped, he lost to FDR. FDR started the New Deal and Keynesian expansion, but not consistently or substantially, and things got a bit better when he did the Right Things. Then the war came and gave the Keynesian kick-start to the economy it so sorely needed.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I was meaning to restrict myself to Government debt in the points I made, but my understanding is that the large amount of private debt - individual and corporate - is really not helping.

Sure -- I understand. Some people pick examples where our national debt as proportion of GDP has been higher. However our indebtedness as a nation was much lower (if you get what I'm at).

Then the war came and gave the Keynesian kick-start to the economy it so sorely needed.

Maybe we're just not fighting a big enough war.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Some people pick examples where our national debt as proportion of GDP has been higher. However our indebtedness as a nation was much lower (if you get what I'm at).

Yup.

Maybe we're just not fighting a big enough war.

Aha! Yes. We just need to find some more hawkish types to persuade the public. Never mind scrapping Trident, we must build our own version of SDI! Space lasers! Satellites! Huge shot in the arm for the military-industrial complex!

Date: 2010-08-04 10:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Hmm... didn't Reagan try that?

Date: 2010-08-04 11:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Indeed, and it worked, for some values of worked. From memory, it brought down unemployment, inflation and interest rates. Also changed wealth distribution in favour of higher earners, and switched the US from being the world's main creditor to the world's main debtor. Oh, and precipitated the end of the Cold War as a side benefit, if you believe some analyses.

Date: 2010-08-04 12:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
it brought down unemployment, inflation and interest rates.

Good lord. I associate Regan with high unemployment but you are right. Peak in the middle of his reign but lower after than before. He reduced GDP too so I guess it depends what you're after.

I wish I'd not stopped to read the wikipedia article on GDP.

Date: 2010-08-04 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
He reduced GDP too so I guess it depends what you're after.

Ah, didn't know that, and most people wouldn't be too keen on that over an eight-year period.

I wish I'd not stopped to read the wikipedia article on GDP.

Luckily I had a meeting which stopped me reading Keynes and economic histories of the 1930s.

Date: 2010-08-04 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I think it was real terms GDP but still given population growth not good.

I'm still disappointed Milton Keynes isn't named for Friedman and John Maynard.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Oh, not very connected but I happened across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

Heh... good old republican financial prudence and small government spending.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
It certainly looks like Republicans main policy strategy is to increase Government debt by reducing taxes, causing recessions, while Democrats tend to try to restore fiscal prudence, causing booms. There are more partisan graphs that show this fairly clearly from the post-war period.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com

1) Your understand of the 30s is correct, and that's the basis of Keynes' theories.

2) The national debt excludes personal debt. The reason the latter makes the problem worse is that consumers can't spend more by borrowing (as they are maxed out) so consumer demand will remain suppressed for a long time,

Date: 2010-08-04 10:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
If only I could convince the bank that I could personally spend my way out of deficit if given sufficient leeway on overdrafts. I'm pretty sure that given 80 years to try the policy I would be very happy with the result.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Alas! Like Greece and Spain, you are stuck with an exchange rate pegged to external entities. Maybe you should create your own currency?

Date: 2010-08-04 11:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Oooh oooh... even better then. If I could persuade the bank to change their exchange rate with respect to me -- if they gave me two pounds for every one I gave them then I'd perform much better economically.

Date: 2010-08-04 11:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
I'm running up against my understanding of economics here, especially transferring Government stuff on to personal stuff, but I rather suspect that if you run a large deficit with a floating exchange rate, you tend to devalue your own currency. Which might not help you in the way you're imagining here.

The crucial point is what currency your debt is denominated in. If your debt is mostly in Steers, the debt burden tends to reduce. But if your debt is mostly in GBP, the debt burden gets much worse, since you'll need to stump up more Steers for each GBP that the bank demands in payment.

It does help make your exports cheap regardless, which is why so many countries want to devalue - unfortunately when everyone wants to devalue at once it gets a bit tricky.

Date: 2010-08-03 10:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] memevector.livejournal.com
So I'm almost certainly in their 'politically sophisticated thinkers' demographic, and so their research suggests that I'm really very resistant to correcting my beliefs where they're wrong.

Er, no. They're dealing with averages are they not? Their research suggests that if there were lots of people a bit like you, then on average they would be more resistant to correcting their beliefs than the average person. It doesn't mean anything whatsoever about you :-)

so there you go, that's where you were wrong :-)

Date: 2010-08-04 09:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
:-) *laughs* Thank you! That is, of course, what I'd really like to believe.

Alas, I'm not sure I can dismiss the evidence quite so lightly. Sure, an average can include a wide range, and does not determine where I personally would fit in the distribution. But in the absence of other evidence, it's the best guess we have - I might be above the average, or below, or slap in the middle.

It's not impossible to imagine that there's a correlation between political sophistication and resistance to correction. (A quick glance suggests they had two samples, rather than measuring sophistication as a continuous variable.) If that's the case, I might be even more resistant to correction than their data suggest!

There is some other evidence, of course. My subjective opinion of myself as an open-minded person is probably not terribly great proof of anything. I have changed my mind about some political issues - most recently, nuclear power, and previously, the Green movement, and waaay back when I was a teenager, feminism, Queer stuff, race and the entire Liberation project. Hard to know quite how to interpret that, though. We can rule out any charge that I'm totally closed-minded and never change my mind when the information I have changes. But we don't know for sure that I'm not just being unprincipled and wishy-washy about the things I've changed my mind on, and bone-headed about the things I haven't.

Still - I think I'm right. Mostly. :-)

Date: 2010-08-04 11:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
You fool. Didn't you read that report? By presenting contrary facts you will merely entrench his erroneous beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong

Date: 2010-08-04 07:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] syllopsium.livejournal.com
off the top of my head i believe that the banks added to the national debt but not that substantially overall. It depends how you measure the debt though - just the headline amount or that and pfi, public sector pensions and more

Cuts of 25% may or may not be achievable. The uk is not sweden but the managed 20% or so i believe in order to tackle their debt

Cuts of 25% are surely possible, the real question is whose quality of life (in extremis, lifespan) is affected and how much can be cut before it becomes a false economy

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong

Date: 2010-08-04 09:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Sweden and Canada both have experiences of deficit cutting that are widely seen as fairly successful (from memory they were around the same time). My understanding is that their experiences aren't straightforward to transfer to the current UK situation, because they were both relatively small countries whose economies were closely coupled to much larger neighbours who were booming economically at the time. So fundamentally, while they did seriously restrain public spending, they didn't deliver the size of cuts being contemplated here, because the main contribution to deficit and debt reduction came from economic growth, led by exports.

(As a simple example, if your annual deficit is 1bn, and your total debt is 10bn, and so is your GDP, you have a 10% deficit and 100% national debt. To cut the debt to 50% in 10 years, you need to find 1.5bn of savings, or 15% of GDP. But if you increase the size of the economy in that time by delivering average growth of 7.2% over 10 years, your GDP is now 20bn. Now you only need to have found 1bn of recurrent savings to shrink the debt from 100% to 50% of GDP - and that 1bn was 10% at the start but only 5% by the end.)

Cuts of 25% are certainly possible in principle, but whether they're deliverable in political reality is another question. There's wiggling already with the talk of it only really being 5% cuts every year for 5 years - that's a total reduction of 23%. (You'd need 5.6% cumulative cuts every year to get to 25% by the end of 5 years.)

I think it's possible politically to reduce the public spending as a proportion of GDP by 25%, or possibly even by 25 percentage points (waaaay harder), but not without growth in GDP making a substantial contribution.

The other elephant in the room politically is inflation. Inflation is an evil trick, since it particularly penalises people who don't deserve it (savers and some pensioners). But inflating debt away kills fewer people and does less damage to medium/long-term growth than, say, cutting the NHS or universities. I'm quite pleased in some respects that the Bank of England seems to be ignoring its mandate to keep CPI below 2% - I'm fairly sure that's a good idea, but I'm a little perturbed at the lack of public accountability. I can see that politically it's hard to change the inflation target, but if I were Mervyn King I'd find it very hard not to start putting increasingly ludicrous 'dog ate my homework' excuses in to my now-regular letters to the Chancellor. Which is one reason why it's a good job I'm not doing his job.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I agree with all and believe that most of them could not be sensibly questioned. (I presume by "real interest rates" you mean the inflation adjusted rate at which money would accrue if invested at the 0.5% interest rate).

I think the dodgiest ones or ones I would question most are

1) "Support for the libdems has almost halved" -- just not seen stats to back that up (though it may be correct).

2) "contributed to by substantial deficits over the last ten years or more." Not sure the ten years is right. Brown had a reputation for prudence in his early years as chancellor. He had a war chest before we had a war. In 2000-2001 we were paying back money. It's a quibble but if you said eight years maybe even nine I'd agree... http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

3) "Very bad social consequences will flow if the UK's annual deficit is not substantially reduced in the medium to long term." I think Keynes questioned this in the medium term (depending on what you think of as medium term). I slightly would too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit_spending

4)Spending cuts of the magnitude under discussion (25% in many Departments) are (a) unprecedented,

I question "unprecedented" -- post WWII I understand there were larger cuts -- total govt spending went from 6.6 billion in 1944 to 4.5 billion in 1946 and 4.0 in 1947. (Mind you, a lot of that was defence cuts, kind of understandably they got hit rather heavily with cuts -- rather curiously and despite talk about "post war cuts" it seems most sectors of govt spending got more money).
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_year1945_0.html#ukgs302

Anyway, a lot of headlines have been "biggest cuts since WWII".

Date: 2010-08-04 10:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Wow, thanks for those, some really useful hard data.

1) The LibDems got 23% at the election. I'd seen stuff from YouGov, which has them on 12% and consistently in the range 12-15%:
http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/Liberal-democrats-hit-12
But a quick hunt turned up ICM for the Guardian says 19%, which is not half so bad
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/21/icm-poll-data-labour-conservatives
Nobody's showing a rally, though, which I'd secretly hoped for.

2) I was wrong. Excellent point. The turning point appears to be 2002. Thank you!

3) "depending on what you think of as medium term" - and famously Keynes was dismissive of the long term ("we're all dead"). As I understand it, Keynesian expansion is what you do when there's a recession. Technically, we're not in recession at the moment. I am, though, starting to believe that my original point is overblown.

4) Ace data source, thanks. Not sure post-war demobilisation is a precedent for the current cuts, though - as you say, a lot of that was defence cuts which were way easier to impose in 1946 and 1947 than cuts would be now. It does depend what you mean by 'unprecedented', of course. I meant by it 'nothing like this has happened before', and while the size of the cuts are similar to post-WW2, the nature of the cuts and the political and economic climate were quite different then in important ways. Hey, happy thought though - the period 1950-1975 is famously a golden age so maybe we'll have that from 2015, and we'll have never had it so good.

Date: 2010-08-04 10:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Thanks for the Lib Dem figures. I'm in the disillusioned percentage I'm afraid. This alliance does not feel like a good thing to me.

The turning point appears to be 2002

Hmm... perhaps we had some sudden expense in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

You probably know the radio four comedy "Absolute power" (also televised briefly). There's an episode of that where Blair tries to stitch up Brown because the latter is so much more popular than the former due to his prudence and restrained good sense. It's not an episode which has aged well.

As I understand it, Keynesian expansion is what you do when there's a recession. Technically, we're not in recession at the moment. I am, though, starting to believe that my original point is overblown.

I'm really going to have to get on and read his general theory again -- I stuck at page 20. Honestly he does not define terms precisely, it's maddening.

a lot of that was defence cuts which were way easier to impose in 1946 and 1947 than cuts would be now.

Hmm... I was surprised by the figures to be honest. My "pop history of the world" had UK government austerity post war because of our crippling debt to the US. However, it does look like the actual cuts were all defense. Yet, as I said, there's a lot of headlines about "biggest government cuts since". That said, defence cuts count as all those soldiers have to go find jobs SOMEWHERE.

Date: 2010-08-04 11:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Hmm... perhaps we had some sudden expense in 2003.

:-) From that handy public spending tool you linked to, it's pretty clear that the main driver was overwhelmingly expansion in health and education spending. Defence has grown, but not as much, and certainly not spectacularly in 2003. The net position in 2002 was +£3bn, and in 2003 it was -£3bn; and defence grew from £29bn to £30bn. It's climbed a lot more since then, but health and education have soared.

(There's something funny going on in the Other spending - it drops very sharply in 1997, then pops back up in 2003 to where you might expect it to have been beforehand. I suspect some accounting changes going on.)

That said, defence cuts count as all those soldiers have to go find jobs SOMEWHER

Oh, yes, indeed, it wasn't much fun at all. But politically it was easy to the point of trivial to make the case that defence should be cut profoundly, and defence was a monster part of the total budget. It's a lot smaller now, and the case for any cuts at all is already running in to trouble. And almost all of the soldiers didn't want to be soldiers, they wanted to go back to civvy life, so were happy about the being made redundant bit, although I'll grant that the not-having-a-job bit was just as sucky.

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