Running out

NSFW Feb. 17th, 2006 05:25 pm
doug: (Default)
[personal profile] doug
Has any non-living primary resource valued by humans entirely run out?

I got to musing while reading Jared Diamond's latest offering, Collapse, in the context of logging and overexploitation and subsequent collapse, and the Peak Oil stuff that everyone's so excited about atm.

I can't think of a single thing. There's a surfeit of examples of extraction becoming locally uneconomic - e.g. tin mining in Cornwall, cod fishing on the Grand Banks. There is also no shortage of living species that have gone extinct at human hands. The world dodo meat supply is utterly gone, 'frinstance. But for non-living material resources I can't think of a single example.

The best candidate I'd come across was Tanzanite, an obscure gemstone from Tanzania that comes from only one place. Several places claimed that it had entirely run out ... but a tiny bit of searching reveals that the company that produces it has recently claimed to have found twice as much of it underground as it previously thought, so exhaustion looks a long way off on that one.

My economics aren't great, but I'm somewhat suspicious of the argument that a decline in supply will generate an increase in price until the demand balances supply, thus rationing the remaining supply essentially indefinitely. Mainly because this presumes a free-ish market operating, and that is just not the case universally. So it seems likely to me that some things must have been destroyed completely.

Come to think of it, though, this is a tricky thing to happen in a complete sense since it's hard to destroy non-living things. Metals, for instance, are rarely destroyed: they are 'consumed' in the economic sense, but the actual metal doesn't get used up. (Except in still-rare circumstances involving nuclear reactors or particle accelerators.) The metal just becomes uneconomic to extract in to re-usable form at current prices: it's entirely possible that at some future point when the stuff in the ground runs out the price will rise and it'll be worthwhile to extract metals from landfill or whatever.

Even something like lapis lazuli isn't actually destroyed when ground up and used for paint - it just gets spread out thinly on canvas, making it uneconomic to gather together again. If people valued it highly enough to destroy pre-C19th art to get it, it's there for the taking.

But that's quibbling, I think: there is plenty of lapis lazuli still in the ground, and metal ores aren't running out neither. I think I'd accept something where the primary in-the-ground version had effectively been used up. But I can't think of any examples. It's entirely conceivable that it'd happen to oil - hence the Peak Oil fuss - but regardless of your view on whether we've passed the peak of oil production or not, nobody is arguing it has actually run out already.

"I can't think of any examples" is a pretty rubbish piece of evidence that something doesn't happen. Can any of you lot think of any? I could at least move to "a lot of smart people can't think of any examples" which is a shade better.

Date: 2006-02-17 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] easterbunny.livejournal.com
I believe that Isaac Asimov wrote an essay on phosphorous being the limiting factor for life on earth, warning that phosphorous supplies were steadily draining into the ocean. But I don't see why we can't mine it from the seabeds (or even from under the seabeds). It'll be more difficult and expensive that strip mining, but maybe we'll all evolve into fish people to avoid the hassle.

There are a limited number of elements that can float off into space without humans launching them there, so unless all heavy metals are are hoovered up by space agencies keen to send probes to the farthest outreaches of space, I think most metals will still be obtainable by plucking them from landfills or orbit. Maybe landfill mining will eventually be easier than ore mining.

I suppose a renegade taukamak experimentalist could fuse a bunch of elements together in an evil campaign to rid the planet of lithium, but perhaps he or she would be foiled by a white hat cowboy fissionist.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Hmm - phosphorus is interesting indeed - phosphate is pretty important as a fertiliser. Wikipedia says US reserves are projected to run out in 2035 ... so while it may go in time it's not a goner yet.

Hadn't thought of the float-off-in-to-space business - helium seems like an obvious candidate. There might be plenty in the sun but we're not going to be mining that any time soon. AIUI we get most of our helium mixed up in natural gas supplies, so it's not run out yet ...

I like the idea of renegade tokamak operators, but they'd have to be pretty damn well funded. *grin*

Date: 2006-02-17 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Ah - yes - it rings a bell. Interesting stuff.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
*grin* Scientists never get famous for saying "we're all not doomed".

Date: 2006-02-17 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
*laughs* Indeed - except perhaps Bjorn Lomborg, but he's Danish and so excluded from public debate atm.

Interesting to follow links on the Simon-Ehrlich thing and read more. Simon wanted to bet that direct measures of human welfare would get better, such as life expectancy. I think he may be starting to lose that particular one, much to my surprise - IIRC global life expectancy is starting to sink, despite it going the other way in the developed world, mainly due to HIV/AIDS.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Actually looks like I was wrong and life expectancy is only going down in Africa and the former Soviet Union; on a quick dig it's still upward globally. (But damn it's hard to find good comparisons.)

Date: 2006-02-17 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I'm pretty sure life expectancy in the world as a whole is still on the rise. Can't find any recent figures. I'd be amazed if the low number of deaths from AIDS (around 3 million a year I think) affected it on anything other than a country-wide level (though for some countries it does have a startling effect).

Date: 2006-02-17 06:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
I think you're right, having gone digging myself. There might even be a sub-continent-wide effect in sub-Saharan Africa, but I'll be it's much less clear if you include the Mahgreb.

Date: 2006-02-17 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com

My understanding is that life expectancy is down in sub-Saharan Africa (AIDS) and the ex-USSR (drink, economic collapse) and up everywhere else.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:16 pm (UTC)
ext_40378: (Default)
From: [identity profile] skibbley.livejournal.com
That article links to a Wired article I remember from 1997: meet Julian Simon, the Doomslayer

See also http://www.longbets.org/

Date: 2006-02-17 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thekumquat.livejournal.com
What about metals which undergo hard to reverse chemical reaction when used - iron into rust, or uranium fission into cobalt and helium and whatever it is?

Is tin mining economic *anywhere* now?

Date: 2006-02-17 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Oxidation's a good 'un - like rust, it's possible to reverse it but it'd take an awful lot of energy to do it. And uranium fission is even more irreversible-for-practical-purposes. As I implied, I'd count running out of the stuff-in-the-ground for both of those. But we're nowhere near short of iron or uranium ores, though.

Dunno if it's economic to mine tin, but shedloads of places do it, and there's no shortage of the stuff SFAIK.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
According to the link [livejournal.com profile] skibbley gave below, if it wasn't economic anywhere before it soon will be, as allegedly tin prices are soaring atm.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:11 pm (UTC)
ext_40378: (Default)
From: [identity profile] skibbley.livejournal.com
Give 5 examples of things that are scarce, and when are they scarce

I liked Jared Diamond's book when it was given to me as a present.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Interesting link, ta ... and none of those examples look like something that has actually run out :-) Even tin, which the article says has gone up in price substantially over 2002-4, is being produced in record quantities. (And what a surreal answer that summary of metals markets is to the question posed on the site!)

Date: 2006-02-17 06:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blue-condition.livejournal.com
I was thinking of buying Collapse; I'd be very interested in seeing your review thereof (I reckon [livejournal.com profile] randomstring and [livejournal.com profile] ortho_bob would probably be interested too...)

Date: 2006-02-17 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Very short precis: societies collapse because of a combination of five factors: damage they inflict on the environment, climate change, hostile neighbours, loss of support from friendly neighbours, and what they do about all that lot. We need to be careful about applying this to current global situations, and there are abundant causes for concern, but we're not doomed if we make good choices about what to do about it all.

Well worth a read if you liked Guns, Germs and Steel, but I didn't enjoy it as much. I found the grand-narrative framework less useful, and the stuff I learned along the way was a bit less fascinating and a bit less entirely-unknown. Good book though and well worth the paperback price.

Date: 2006-02-17 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Oh, and there's a lot of stuff about Montana, Pacific Islands (including Easter Island) and the Norse, plus whistlestop visits of other famous and not-so-famous collapses, near-collapses, and relevant non-collapses from the past and present.

Date: 2006-02-17 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com

None of the Peak Oil lot are saying oil will run out - when it gets expensive enough it'll just be replaced by something else. The argument is whether demand will outstrip production in a sufficiently short time frame as to make the transistion to another source or energy very painful.

Date: 2006-02-17 07:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] randomstring.livejournal.com

There's plenty of examples of living stuff being pretty much eliminated - trees on Easter Island and, to a much lesser extent, in the UK for smelting/shipbuilding, fishing collapse etc.

For non-living stuff, how about water? Obviously not in global shortage, but places like the Aral Sea have been treated in what one would have to consider a non-optimal way.

While neither of these are exactly what you are asking for, they are certainly a problem to the rational market hypothesis.

Date: 2006-02-21 01:51 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I guess electro plated silver dishes don't count ? But you don't see too many of them these days. I found one at my mums house, which was her mum's must have been victorian/edwardian, when I was clearing her house out.

Laurence

Date: 2006-03-01 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mhw.livejournal.com
I think the natural resources of technetium and promethium have now been exhausted.

Date: 2006-03-02 09:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
*laughs* Yes, I suppose you could say that, although counting technetium and promethium as natural resources is stretching the definition of "natural" rather beyond its usual bounds.

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