azarsuerte: The Eleventh Doctor (Matt Smith) and Amy (Karen Gillan) looking up and smiling (Doctor Who - Eleven and Amy)
[personal profile] azarsuerte
If you don't like River Song, you must either a) be a disgruntled Doctor/Rose 'shipper, or b) hate strong female characters.

Um, NO. Neither of the above, thankyouverymuch. My list of awesome female characters I adore is probably longer than your arm (a good chunk of it just from Doctor Who), and FWIW, while it really shouldn't matter to the conversation, I don't like Rose any more than I like River.

So, yeah, I'm admitting it. Out loud. In public. I don't like River Song. I dislike her less this season than last season, granted, but I still find her frequently smug (*gasp* yes, I used that word) and I strongly dislike her tendency to rub their shared/to-be-shared history in the Doctor's face. I love Steven Moffat beyond belief (after that finale, I would happily marry him if he weren't already married ;-) ), but when he created River, I think he must've said to himself, "I know, I'm going to create a character who's half Romana and half Benny Summerfield." But she's not Romana, and she's not Benny, and frankly I would rather have one or both of them than more of River right now. :-(

So why do I dislike River Song? I think part of it is Alex Kingston's performance. Now, I've never really seen her in anything else, have no idea what I think of her as an actress, but as River she really rubs me the wrong way. She really does come across as incredibly smug, and that's got to be a conscious acting choice: many of River's lines to the Doctor, if they'd been said more playfully, would probably not bug me nearly as much. But since she was cast, then obviously Moffat and co. agree with her interpretation, so what can I do but accept it's the "right" one? I will give her props for one thing: having to act a character whose development goes backwards must be a challenge, and one a lot of actors probably couldn't pull off.

Second, while in theory the idea of a relationship out of order sounds pretty cool, in execution it creates one GINORMOUS problem, which is that the power dynamics in it can never be approaching equal, except for perhaps *once* if they meet in the midpoint. I hate, hate, hate relationships with lopsided power dynamics. (This is one reason why The Time Traveller's Wife, while gorgeously written, still gives me a vaguely creepy feeling when I read it. The other being the vaguely pedophiliac undertones of the bits when Claire is a kid.) Which is a big reason why, the more the Doctor learns, and the further we go back in River's timeline so the less *she* knows, the more I can tolerate her. But I also have this niggling fear that once we pass that midpoint and it's a younger River just getting to know the all-knowing Doctor for the first time, the irritation I feel now towards her will be transferred to the Doctor and I really don't want that! :-(

Third, part of the reason I grew to dislike Rose over the course of her run is that I felt like RTD made the Doctor so all about her that all the other companions were consequently relegated to "less important" status, whether intentionally or not. And I'm sorry, but no. The Doctor has loved all of his companions in different ways, but none more or less than any others. Or at least, that's how it should be. With River? We got that same implied "she is/will be MORE IMPORTANT to the Doctor than ANYONE ELSE" from the very start. And in so doing, the show immediately turned me off the character. If we find out at some point in the future that she's not a) his wife/one twu wuv, b) the most important person in his universe, I may very well come to a point where I actually like her instead of just tolerating her with occasional moments of, "okay, that was admittedly pretty awesome". (For example, the "are you married?"/"did I just accidentally propose?" scene in "The Big Bang" undid a LOT of the progress I'd made towards warming up to the character in that episode alone. :-( )

Fourth, going back to what I mentioned above, River feels like she was created to replace two perfectly good characters who already exist in the Whoverse. Now, I don't know that it would be even possible for them to use Benny due to how she was introduced to the universe and her long, complicated and--most importantly--copyrighted history in spin-off media. But Romana? If they could find a way to resurrect the Master, they could find a way to bring her back. And at least when Romana was condescending towards the Doctor, it was because she actually was smarter than him, not just more knowledgeable by virtue of an accident of causality. ;-) And going back to the power dynamic thing: Romana's advantage of intelligence/education was always balanced out by the Doctor's advantage in life experience.

Finally, while she's less of one than she was in Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead, River is still in many ways the definition of a Mary Sue. And considering how much I hate that term? It should say a lot that I'm using it. :-( We have yet to see her really demonstrate ANY flaws: okay, she was in prison for killing a man. But we don't know who or why, and until we do, we don't know if it's a flaw yet. She can get out of anything (except an exploding TARDIS, but, y'know...), outsmart anyone (even the Doctor so far), frighten a DALEK, and always knows what's coming because it's already happened for her. Oh, and everybody loves her (or someday will). If she has any failings at all, I must be missing them.

So in conclusion: I don't like River Song. This does not make me a misogynistic Barbie!shipper. There are other things that might, I don't know: I'm still very much in the process of examining/discovering my privilege and my prejudices and probably always will be. :-\

As for why other people don't like her? That I can't answer. But you know what? I bet a lot of them--even the Doctor/Rose 'shippers--would have answers that are a lot more complicated and a lot closer to mine than the oversimplification fandom wants to slap on them. :-P

To my friends (and other people) that do love her: considering how big a presence I suspect she's going to continue to be in Moffat's Who, not only do I not begrudge you that, but frankly I envy you. *grin* With luck, maybe at some point in the future I'll be able to enthusiastically say a River Song episode was awesome because of her, not in spite of her. But in the meantime? All I ask from fandom as a whole is this: stop assuming that people who like or dislike a particular character that you feel differently about must have certain traits. It's a surefire way to make them a lot LESS likely to come around to your way of thinking. :-P (And you know what? That doesn't just go for River, but for characters like Rose and Martha and even Adric too, K???)

Date: 2010-06-29 03:55 am (UTC)
actiaslunaris: Galileo - Utsumi Kaoru resting her head on Yukawa Manabu's shoulder - text: a line-drawn heart (turn the page)
From: [personal profile] actiaslunaris
I, for one, appreciate your honesty and well-thought out reasons for disliking River. I do like her, but only because I like the actress well-enough to forgive some of these flaws of her character; Alex Kingston has always chosen roles of strong, competent women (her role as Mrs. Bennett in Lost in Austen was awesome, to name one).

You are quite right about Rose, as well. I hated the way that played out.

It's a pity that people jump to conclusions more often than not. I like that you took the time to explain your reasons for disliking her--it made for an interesting read!

Date: 2010-06-29 09:24 am (UTC)
kerravonsen: TARDIS in a field: "Somewhere Else" (tardis-somewhere-else)
From: [personal profile] kerravonsen
Yes. THIS.
* Mary-Sue: check
* I would say 1/2 Jack Harkness and 1/2 Indiana Jones, but same diff.
* Being more important than everyone: check
* Being smug due to an accident of causality: check

For example, the "are you married?"/"did I just accidentally propose?" scene in "The Big Bang" undid a LOT of the progress I'd made towards warming up to the character in that episode alone. :-(
Me too.

part of the reason I grew to dislike Rose over the course of her run is that I felt like RTD made the Doctor so all about her that all the other companions were consequently relegated to "less important" status, whether intentionally or not. And I'm sorry, but no. The Doctor has loved all of his companions in different ways, but none more or less than any others.
YES. I liked Rose with Nine, I think because they had a balance of enthusiasm versus bitterness, and somehow Rose felt more proactive when she was with Nine. But Rose with Ten didn't have that kind of balance; it was a sort of mutual obsession, not anything healthy at all.

When someone rubs my nose in "X is so awesome" without letting me judge for myself what I think of X, I revolt against it.

On the other hand, it could well be that the accusation that "if River was a man, you wouldn't hate her" warrants investigation, since I do compare River Song to Jack Harkness, and I don't hate Jack Harkness. Let me try to figure out why...
1) Jack talks about his past sexual conquests, so does River
2) Jack flirts with the Doctor, so does River
3) They are from the same period of history
4) They both have cool gizmos and know how to use them.
5) They both have enough tech knowledge to help with the TARDIS (I don't think Jack ever flew it, but he did help with repairs, which we haven't seen River do, so I think I'd still call it about even).
6) Jack doesn't know anything about the Doctor or the Doctor's history. River not only knows heaps about the Doctor, but she knows more about the Doctor than the Doctor himself does, and she is very smug about it.

It is Point 6 that is the sticking point for me. Shooting a Dalek in the eye, that has merit, it is something earned and admirable. Knowing things due to an accident of causality is not something earned, it has no merit, and to be smug about this non-awesome thing is just adding insult to injury.

Also, regarding Point 2, the Doctor's differing reactions to Jack's flirting versus River's flirting is evidence of the power imbalance between the Doctor and River: with Jack, the Doctor took it in his stride, while with River, the Doctor always seems to end up flustered. And I think part of that is that she has him at a disadvantage; he knows very little about her, and she knows an enormous amount about him. With Jack, he and the Doctor had about equal knowledge of each other. And I hate that River seems to deliberately take advantage of that. That doesn't make me think her sexy, it makes me think her unkind.

It also makes me wonder about her history with the Doctor when she says "Rule One: The Doctor lies." That does not sound promising at all.

Date: 2010-06-28 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] naushika.livejournal.com
Ugh, I agree so hard with everything. I can not stand River Song. I almost tolerated her in the finale, but then she started going on about things changing and ~spoilers~ again and I just went back to full on hate. You nailed it exactly, she is SMUG, and she is SPECIAL, and she has NO flaws, and she is just the most important awesome snowflake ever and it drives me craaaazy.

Date: 2010-06-29 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
*nod* I would like to enjoy her more, I really would, but I just haven't been able to, and the attitude from some fans that prompted this rant really hasn't helped either. :-P

Date: 2010-06-28 10:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donna-c-punk.livejournal.com
Hey, I'm not judging anyone at all. You know I disliked her a whole lot when she was first on. The last two episodes did a lot to make her interesting to me and she's been showing how capable she is, instead of us being told she's supposed to be. After her last scene in the finale, I'm putting my money on her connection to the Doctor being ANYTHING BUT marriage. That right there, makes me even more curious and eager for her return. I wanna find out what! I know how this fandom is, and it sucks they're making you feel like that. It's how I feel when I talk about how much I can't stand Ten or Jack or the like. Very popular characters who are like sacred cows and if you don't like them, "OMG, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"

Date: 2010-06-29 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
I hope you're right about the "anything BUT marriage" part. In fact, heck, I actually do want to know the rest of her story if only because I'm hoping it WILL turn out to be something completely different than what's been hinted.

And honestly? A part of me understands the impulse. I've had a hard time understanding how people can hate Martha, or Nyssa, or Sarah Jane, or in the case of one friend, Charley. *g* But the problem comes when instead of listening to their reasons, you just assume there must be something "wrong" with that person. (I wrote a rant on just that subject when it came to 'shipping, once, ages ago, and every now and then I still get hits on it. *grin*) It's the crowd mentality, really. No matter how much we supposedly celebrate our individuality in fandom, when it really comes down to it, most people tend to react with: "You are not following the majority, ergo you are flawed." :-P

Date: 2010-06-28 10:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrv3000.livejournal.com
That's a problem I'm seeing in fandom lately. It's great that people are being more aware of and more protective of female characters, especially in sci-fi. The problem comes in when you're not allowed to dislike a female character, or even point out that the character isn't very well written, without getting a label slapped on.

Date: 2010-06-29 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
I don't remember who said this, but to me it's an important distinction: if someone is always criticizing the female characters for being poorly written and not holding the male characters to the same standard, then it becomes problematic and should prompt some re-examination. But that's such a specific condition that, no matter how prevalent or not, it can't really be covered by blanket statements.

(I actually thought about listing some of the female characters I *do* like in Who-dom, but decided a) that would sound like protesting too much and b) my record (http://www.whofic.com/viewuser.php?uid=1049) really should speak for itself. ;-) )
Edited Date: 2010-06-29 06:22 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-06-29 12:11 am (UTC)
graycardinal: Shadow on asphalt (Default)
From: [personal profile] graycardinal
I've read a theory -- if I can track it down, I'll try to come back and link -- that River Song somehow is the TARDIS. Which might actually explain a lot of the entirely valid issues you raise....

Date: 2010-06-29 06:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
I think I have seen that one floating around. It's interesting, definitely. But I run into the same problem with that theory as with all the "she's really Romana" and "she's really the Rani" ones that are floating around: when we first met her, she was human and very mortal. A physical avatar of the TARDIS, like a Time Lady, would be a bit harder to kill, wouldn't they?

I don't know. I'm definitely curious to see what her story IS, if only because I still have hopes Moffat's going to surprise us. *g*

Date: 2010-06-29 08:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misssimm.livejournal.com
I think I prefered River in Silence In The Library than I have this season, I think it's that she doesn't quite fit as well with the Eleventh Doctor for me as she did with the Tenth.

Also how is being a Rose/Doctor fan still being used as a reason to dismiss those who disagree?! FFS it's been 4 seasons (practically) since she was a regular and 2 seasons (again, counting the specials) since the appeared.

People who can't come up with a better argument than the above just need to stay out of fandom. Grrr.

Also I kinda love the idea [livejournal.com profile] graycardinal mentioned about her being the Tardis. Would certainly make things interesting.

Date: 2010-06-30 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
It's definitely clear she was meant to be "paired" with an older Doctor: but then Moffat has said more than once in interviews that he fully intended to cast the Doctor forty or older until Matt Smith walked in and blew them all away. *g* I think considering his age, Matt does an extraordinary job holding his own against a much more experienced actress playing a character who also has the advantage on him. But it definitely does add another layer of awkwardness to their relationship. *g*

Also how is being a Rose/Doctor fan still being used as a reason to dismiss those who disagree?! FFS it's been 4 seasons (practically) since she was a regular and 2 seasons (again, counting the specials) since she appeared.

Well, I've seen enough rabid 'shippers in a variety of fandoms who *would* hate a character just because they "threaten" the OTP. So I get where the mentality comes from, and there probably are a few Doctor/Rose 'shippers for whom it may be just that simple. It's the blanket lumping of everyone who dislikes River into the same, tiny, fanatical basket that drives me up the wall. :-P

(How've you been incidentally? Haven't seen or chatted with you in a while and I'm soooooo out of the habit of getting on IM anymore that most days I forget entirely. *sheepish grin* Any good videos in the works? I'm working on my SECOND S5 DW one. :-o )

Date: 2010-06-29 09:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] writtenhistory.livejournal.com
Every time I get close to thinking I can like River, they go and do something with her that makes me hate her. I almost liked her in Big Bang until the end when they gave her the super specialness of remembering the Doctor enough to remind Amy of him so she coudl bring him back. It should have been about Amy and the Doctor in that moment, the story he told her, her habit of believing things that others say aren't real (the raggedy doctor, the stars), but instead it was made to look like it was all caused by river.

Date: 2010-06-30 01:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
Heh. I like to believe River's actions were just the tipping point: that it would've happened eventually anyway, she just sped up the timetable a little. :-)

It wasn't enough to ruin the episode - or even the ending - for me anyway.

Date: 2010-06-29 10:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com
I'm here via [livejournal.com profile] who_daily. This is a well-argued post that raises points fandom really needs to remember. I hate all the stuff going around lately saying that if you dislike Character X you MUST be antifeminist, stuck in the past, or all sorts of other undesirable traits. I've heard a lot of similar arguments tossed around referring to Amy Pond. Smart, pro-woman, fair-minded people are still allowed to have favorite and least favorite characters.

The Pandorica Opens was the first ep in which I found myself liking River, much to my surprise and relief. I LOATHED her in SitL/FotD and disliked her in ToA/F&S. Even as River impressed me in TPO by actually showing how great she is rather than merely acting like we should take her word for it, I still can't think of the way she was in SitL without gritting my teeth. While the last two eps of this series redeemed her to me, her role in the wedding as the Most Special Snowflake (she apparently remembers even before Amy so she can bring the journal! And she might be married to the Doctor!) annoyed me again. *sigh*

Maybe her smugness is supposed to be her flaw? For that theory to make sense, it really ought to get her into trouble, which hasn't happened yet.

Date: 2010-06-30 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
Maybe her smugness is supposed to be her flaw? For that theory to make sense, it really ought to get her into trouble, which hasn't happened yet.

And if it hasn't happened yet, it probably isn't going to. Or at least if it does, she won't learn anything from it since it's a character trait we know she'll have until the day she dies. *wry grin*

Like I said, I'm getting to a point where I can tolerate her presence in an episode (even enjoy it when she's being awesome and proactive instead of a know-it-all) but I'm not quite at the liking point just yet. Maybe next season? :-)

Date: 2010-06-29 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] topaz-eyes.livejournal.com
I'm here via [livejournal.com profile] who_daily. I remember Alex Kingston from ER, where she played Elizabeth Corday. I loved her in that role; Elizabeth was what I'd call a truly strong female character, and she was definitely one of my favorites.

I prefer characters to have some smidgen of vulnerability. I didn't like River in SitL/FotD until she expressed some doubt in Ten, for example. This season I know I'm supposed to think she's awesome and mysterious, that I should be intrigued by her. And yes, she's done some amazing things. But I wasn't truly interested in River until her encounter with the Dalek in TBB. Now I want to know why. Now she's interesting. I wish this had happened so much earlier.

Date: 2010-06-29 04:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raykel.livejournal.com
THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one who hated her. I agree with everything you wrote (except the stuff about Rose, because I adore Rose). Just... YES. The out of order, and her having a relationship with the Doctor that he (and we) haven't had a chance to see her EARN bugs the HELL out of me. And the smug. Oh, how I hate the smug.

So, yes. You hit the nail on the head.

Date: 2010-06-29 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azarsuerte.livejournal.com
Heh. Honestly, the main reason I even brought up Rose is because I figure me not loving her puts me in a unique position to make my point without automatically being dismissed. :-P Because I have seen that in the journals of people who've criticized River in the past: people will come in JUST to comment, "Oh, you're just jealous because she gets in the way of the Doctor/Rose relationship." No one can say that to me, although I'm sure there are people out there who would try. *grin*

Date: 2010-06-29 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saved29.livejournal.com
I wish Moffat would show us why River is so wonderful, instead of telling us. We are just not used to anybody knowing more than the Doctor and she does and it is annoying.
I do feel really bad for people who dislike Rose, because she was RTD's darling and you just couldn't escape her. Furthermore, an asexual doctor suddenly had a love interest and she was portrayed as being more important to the doctor than other companions which was of course aggravating to the fans who grew up with Jo Grant or Sarah Jane, and e.t.c.
And now there is River, who is supposed to be even more important. If her character is developed well, and we get to see why she is THE River Song, she might become likable.

Date: 2010-06-29 05:33 pm (UTC)
ext_26142: (1st Romana Pink by beccadg)
From: [identity profile] beccadg.livejournal.com
If you don't like River Song, you must either a) be a disgruntled Doctor/Rose 'shipper, or b) hate strong female characters.

That reminds me of people assuming I don't like Gwen Cooper because a) she gets in the way of Jack/Ianto or b) I hate strong female characters. It is neither. It's about who she is as a character and how the writers treat her. Period. I know you love her, and are probably more worried by the news there is going to be a season four then excited since you were hoping for her to be safe. I also know we're both fans of Martha and Romana (strong female characters), and you've told me you might ship Jack/Ianto if you saw their relationship the way I do. I'm sure you can understand I have reasons for disliking Gwen that aren't about 'shipping or her gender.

All I ask from fandom as a whole is this: stop assuming that people who like or dislike a particular character that you feel differently about must have certain traits. It's a surefire way to make them a lot LESS likely to come around to your way of thinking. :-P

Well said.

Date: 2010-06-29 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladybeth.livejournal.com
I think you hit on exactly the same reasons I don't like her. I'm a multishipper (although usually one Doctor/X ship per incarnation) so I usually am ok with new ships (baring Martha/Doctor, but I have reasons for that). But River always seemed....forced. And I think it is her smugness. And the fact that when she's there the rest of the characters kinda get forgotten either because of writing or because of fandom wars.I think if she can go an episode without calling him Sweetie, or mentioning Spoilers (she's given me reason to hate that word.I actually cringed the last time she said it) I might be able to handle her, eventually.

I am trying. Maybe I'll be surprised and there will be a scene in the next season that chances my opinion of her, but for now, She's my least favorite companion.

As for Alex Kingston I saw her as Mrs. Bennet in Lost in Austen. She did a good job making Mrs. Bennet not some ditzy society wife. Which tells me my dislike of River has nothing to do with the actor (as would probably be the case if Tom Cruise would ever appear on DW, which thankfully is a slim chance) and more on how the character was written.

Date: 2010-06-29 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com
I like the message of this post. The labelling and dismissing that goes on in this fandom is so frustrating. Yeah, there are people on the extreme, but lumping everyone together is, as you say, counter-productive, and also frankly stupid and self-serving. I guess it makes people feel better to think that other people must be drooling morons to dislike a character they love; I wouldn't know, because no fictional character blinds me to reality that much.

I like River most of the time (like most characters!), but this was indeed worrying, what you pointed out: once we pass that midpoint and it's a younger River just getting to know the all-knowing Doctor for the first time - ugh, that could be awful. The gender and power dynamics...I can't figure out River's timeline very much, but hopefully her first Doctor is a kind and young-hearted one, to overcome that. I think Eleven, for example, would be more careful with River's emotions than Ten. Though maybe those early encounters are what caused River to be so happily balls-out with the Doctor all the time - giving as good as she got! :)

Date: 2010-06-29 06:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merlins-sister.livejournal.com
I do like River - but then I seem to enjoy any character that puts the Doctor off balance, and seems to know more than him occasionally - part of my issue with 'superhero' characters. However, I would never think that if you stated you disliked River, even without the explanation above, that this was because you 'hated women/prefered companion X'. Everyone has different tastes and I am continually amazed that fandom about shows that illustrate the value of tolerance can not show the same tolerance to their members.

Date: 2010-07-28 04:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whispersecho.livejournal.com
Now you've got me thinking about why it is River bugs me so much. It's very much along the same lines, but I think there's more to as well. I like her much less this season than I did in Silence in the Library, and I didn't like her all that much then... except when she reminded me of Benny... and then she wasn't.



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