If you don't like River Song, you must either a) be a disgruntled Doctor/Rose 'shipper, or b) hate strong female characters.
Um, NO. Neither of the above, thankyouverymuch. My list of awesome female characters I adore is probably longer than your arm (a good chunk of it just from Doctor Who), and FWIW, while it really shouldn't matter to the conversation, I don't like Rose any more than I like River.
So, yeah, I'm admitting it. Out loud. In public. I don't like River Song. I dislike her less this season than last season, granted, but I still find her frequently smug (*gasp* yes, I used that word) and I strongly dislike her tendency to rub their shared/to-be-shared history in the Doctor's face. I love Steven Moffat beyond belief (after that finale, I would happily marry him if he weren't already married ;-) ), but when he created River, I think he must've said to himself, "I know, I'm going to create a character who's half Romana and half Benny Summerfield." But she's not Romana, and she's not Benny, and frankly I would rather have one or both of them than more of River right now. :-(
So why do I dislike River Song? I think part of it is Alex Kingston's performance. Now, I've never really seen her in anything else, have no idea what I think of her as an actress, but as River she really rubs me the wrong way. She really does come across as incredibly smug, and that's got to be a conscious acting choice: many of River's lines to the Doctor, if they'd been said more playfully, would probably not bug me nearly as much. But since she was cast, then obviously Moffat and co. agree with her interpretation, so what can I do but accept it's the "right" one? I will give her props for one thing: having to act a character whose development goes backwards must be a challenge, and one a lot of actors probably couldn't pull off.
Second, while in theory the idea of a relationship out of order sounds pretty cool, in execution it creates one GINORMOUS problem, which is that the power dynamics in it can never be approaching equal, except for perhaps *once* if they meet in the midpoint. I hate, hate, hate relationships with lopsided power dynamics. (This is one reason why The Time Traveller's Wife, while gorgeously written, still gives me a vaguely creepy feeling when I read it. The other being the vaguely pedophiliac undertones of the bits when Claire is a kid.) Which is a big reason why, the more the Doctor learns, and the further we go back in River's timeline so the less *she* knows, the more I can tolerate her. But I also have this niggling fear that once we pass that midpoint and it's a younger River just getting to know the all-knowing Doctor for the first time, the irritation I feel now towards her will be transferred to the Doctor and I really don't want that! :-(
Third, part of the reason I grew to dislike Rose over the course of her run is that I felt like RTD made the Doctor so all about her that all the other companions were consequently relegated to "less important" status, whether intentionally or not. And I'm sorry, but no. The Doctor has loved all of his companions in different ways, but none more or less than any others. Or at least, that's how it should be. With River? We got that same implied "she is/will be MORE IMPORTANT to the Doctor than ANYONE ELSE" from the very start. And in so doing, the show immediately turned me off the character. If we find out at some point in the future that she's not a) his wife/one twu wuv, b) the most important person in his universe, I may very well come to a point where I actually like her instead of just tolerating her with occasional moments of, "okay, that was admittedly pretty awesome". (For example, the "are you married?"/"did I just accidentally propose?" scene in "The Big Bang" undid a LOT of the progress I'd made towards warming up to the character in that episode alone. :-( )
Fourth, going back to what I mentioned above, River feels like she was created to replace two perfectly good characters who already exist in the Whoverse. Now, I don't know that it would be even possible for them to use Benny due to how she was introduced to the universe and her long, complicated and--most importantly--copyrighted history in spin-off media. But Romana? If they could find a way to resurrect the Master, they could find a way to bring her back. And at least when Romana was condescending towards the Doctor, it was because she actually was smarter than him, not just more knowledgeable by virtue of an accident of causality. ;-) And going back to the power dynamic thing: Romana's advantage of intelligence/education was always balanced out by the Doctor's advantage in life experience.
Finally, while she's less of one than she was in Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead, River is still in many ways the definition of a Mary Sue. And considering how much I hate that term? It should say a lot that I'm using it. :-( We have yet to see her really demonstrate ANY flaws: okay, she was in prison for killing a man. But we don't know who or why, and until we do, we don't know if it's a flaw yet. She can get out of anything (except an exploding TARDIS, but, y'know...), outsmart anyone (even the Doctor so far), frighten a DALEK, and always knows what's coming because it's already happened for her. Oh, and everybody loves her (or someday will). If she has any failings at all, I must be missing them.
So in conclusion: I don't like River Song. This does not make me a misogynistic Barbie!shipper. There are other things that might, I don't know: I'm still very much in the process of examining/discovering my privilege and my prejudices and probably always will be. :-\
As for why other people don't like her? That I can't answer. But you know what? I bet a lot of them--even the Doctor/Rose 'shippers--would have answers that are a lot more complicated and a lot closer to mine than the oversimplification fandom wants to slap on them. :-P
To my friends (and other people) that do love her: considering how big a presence I suspect she's going to continue to be in Moffat's Who, not only do I not begrudge you that, but frankly I envy you. *grin* With luck, maybe at some point in the future I'll be able to enthusiastically say a River Song episode was awesome because of her, not in spite of her. But in the meantime? All I ask from fandom as a whole is this: stop assuming that people who like or dislike a particular character that you feel differently about must have certain traits. It's a surefire way to make them a lot LESS likely to come around to your way of thinking. :-P (And you know what? That doesn't just go for River, but for characters like Rose and Martha and even Adric too, K???)
Um, NO. Neither of the above, thankyouverymuch. My list of awesome female characters I adore is probably longer than your arm (a good chunk of it just from Doctor Who), and FWIW, while it really shouldn't matter to the conversation, I don't like Rose any more than I like River.
So, yeah, I'm admitting it. Out loud. In public. I don't like River Song. I dislike her less this season than last season, granted, but I still find her frequently smug (*gasp* yes, I used that word) and I strongly dislike her tendency to rub their shared/to-be-shared history in the Doctor's face. I love Steven Moffat beyond belief (after that finale, I would happily marry him if he weren't already married ;-) ), but when he created River, I think he must've said to himself, "I know, I'm going to create a character who's half Romana and half Benny Summerfield." But she's not Romana, and she's not Benny, and frankly I would rather have one or both of them than more of River right now. :-(
So why do I dislike River Song? I think part of it is Alex Kingston's performance. Now, I've never really seen her in anything else, have no idea what I think of her as an actress, but as River she really rubs me the wrong way. She really does come across as incredibly smug, and that's got to be a conscious acting choice: many of River's lines to the Doctor, if they'd been said more playfully, would probably not bug me nearly as much. But since she was cast, then obviously Moffat and co. agree with her interpretation, so what can I do but accept it's the "right" one? I will give her props for one thing: having to act a character whose development goes backwards must be a challenge, and one a lot of actors probably couldn't pull off.
Second, while in theory the idea of a relationship out of order sounds pretty cool, in execution it creates one GINORMOUS problem, which is that the power dynamics in it can never be approaching equal, except for perhaps *once* if they meet in the midpoint. I hate, hate, hate relationships with lopsided power dynamics. (This is one reason why The Time Traveller's Wife, while gorgeously written, still gives me a vaguely creepy feeling when I read it. The other being the vaguely pedophiliac undertones of the bits when Claire is a kid.) Which is a big reason why, the more the Doctor learns, and the further we go back in River's timeline so the less *she* knows, the more I can tolerate her. But I also have this niggling fear that once we pass that midpoint and it's a younger River just getting to know the all-knowing Doctor for the first time, the irritation I feel now towards her will be transferred to the Doctor and I really don't want that! :-(
Third, part of the reason I grew to dislike Rose over the course of her run is that I felt like RTD made the Doctor so all about her that all the other companions were consequently relegated to "less important" status, whether intentionally or not. And I'm sorry, but no. The Doctor has loved all of his companions in different ways, but none more or less than any others. Or at least, that's how it should be. With River? We got that same implied "she is/will be MORE IMPORTANT to the Doctor than ANYONE ELSE" from the very start. And in so doing, the show immediately turned me off the character. If we find out at some point in the future that she's not a) his wife/one twu wuv, b) the most important person in his universe, I may very well come to a point where I actually like her instead of just tolerating her with occasional moments of, "okay, that was admittedly pretty awesome". (For example, the "are you married?"/"did I just accidentally propose?" scene in "The Big Bang" undid a LOT of the progress I'd made towards warming up to the character in that episode alone. :-( )
Fourth, going back to what I mentioned above, River feels like she was created to replace two perfectly good characters who already exist in the Whoverse. Now, I don't know that it would be even possible for them to use Benny due to how she was introduced to the universe and her long, complicated and--most importantly--copyrighted history in spin-off media. But Romana? If they could find a way to resurrect the Master, they could find a way to bring her back. And at least when Romana was condescending towards the Doctor, it was because she actually was smarter than him, not just more knowledgeable by virtue of an accident of causality. ;-) And going back to the power dynamic thing: Romana's advantage of intelligence/education was always balanced out by the Doctor's advantage in life experience.
Finally, while she's less of one than she was in Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead, River is still in many ways the definition of a Mary Sue. And considering how much I hate that term? It should say a lot that I'm using it. :-( We have yet to see her really demonstrate ANY flaws: okay, she was in prison for killing a man. But we don't know who or why, and until we do, we don't know if it's a flaw yet. She can get out of anything (except an exploding TARDIS, but, y'know...), outsmart anyone (even the Doctor so far), frighten a DALEK, and always knows what's coming because it's already happened for her. Oh, and everybody loves her (or someday will). If she has any failings at all, I must be missing them.
So in conclusion: I don't like River Song. This does not make me a misogynistic Barbie!shipper. There are other things that might, I don't know: I'm still very much in the process of examining/discovering my privilege and my prejudices and probably always will be. :-\
As for why other people don't like her? That I can't answer. But you know what? I bet a lot of them--even the Doctor/Rose 'shippers--would have answers that are a lot more complicated and a lot closer to mine than the oversimplification fandom wants to slap on them. :-P
To my friends (and other people) that do love her: considering how big a presence I suspect she's going to continue to be in Moffat's Who, not only do I not begrudge you that, but frankly I envy you. *grin* With luck, maybe at some point in the future I'll be able to enthusiastically say a River Song episode was awesome because of her, not in spite of her. But in the meantime? All I ask from fandom as a whole is this: stop assuming that people who like or dislike a particular character that you feel differently about must have certain traits. It's a surefire way to make them a lot LESS likely to come around to your way of thinking. :-P (And you know what? That doesn't just go for River, but for characters like Rose and Martha and even Adric too, K???)
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Date: 2010-06-29 03:55 am (UTC)You are quite right about Rose, as well. I hated the way that played out.
It's a pity that people jump to conclusions more often than not. I like that you took the time to explain your reasons for disliking her--it made for an interesting read!
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Date: 2010-06-29 06:38 am (UTC)And thanks. I really would like to like her, and there've been strides in the right direction, but I'm not there yet and I'm just sick of hearing how there must be something wrong with anyone who doesn't like her. :-P I finally just needed to say something about it. Thanks for listening. :-)
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Date: 2010-06-29 09:24 am (UTC)* Mary-Sue: check
* I would say 1/2 Jack Harkness and 1/2 Indiana Jones, but same diff.
* Being more important than everyone: check
* Being smug due to an accident of causality: check
For example, the "are you married?"/"did I just accidentally propose?" scene in "The Big Bang" undid a LOT of the progress I'd made towards warming up to the character in that episode alone. :-(
Me too.
part of the reason I grew to dislike Rose over the course of her run is that I felt like RTD made the Doctor so all about her that all the other companions were consequently relegated to "less important" status, whether intentionally or not. And I'm sorry, but no. The Doctor has loved all of his companions in different ways, but none more or less than any others.
YES. I liked Rose with Nine, I think because they had a balance of enthusiasm versus bitterness, and somehow Rose felt more proactive when she was with Nine. But Rose with Ten didn't have that kind of balance; it was a sort of mutual obsession, not anything healthy at all.
When someone rubs my nose in "X is so awesome" without letting me judge for myself what I think of X, I revolt against it.
On the other hand, it could well be that the accusation that "if River was a man, you wouldn't hate her" warrants investigation, since I do compare River Song to Jack Harkness, and I don't hate Jack Harkness. Let me try to figure out why...
1) Jack talks about his past sexual conquests, so does River
2) Jack flirts with the Doctor, so does River
3) They are from the same period of history
4) They both have cool gizmos and know how to use them.
5) They both have enough tech knowledge to help with the TARDIS (I don't think Jack ever flew it, but he did help with repairs, which we haven't seen River do, so I think I'd still call it about even).
6) Jack doesn't know anything about the Doctor or the Doctor's history. River not only knows heaps about the Doctor, but she knows more about the Doctor than the Doctor himself does, and she is very smug about it.
It is Point 6 that is the sticking point for me. Shooting a Dalek in the eye, that has merit, it is something earned and admirable. Knowing things due to an accident of causality is not something earned, it has no merit, and to be smug about this non-awesome thing is just adding insult to injury.
Also, regarding Point 2, the Doctor's differing reactions to Jack's flirting versus River's flirting is evidence of the power imbalance between the Doctor and River: with Jack, the Doctor took it in his stride, while with River, the Doctor always seems to end up flustered. And I think part of that is that she has him at a disadvantage; he knows very little about her, and she knows an enormous amount about him. With Jack, he and the Doctor had about equal knowledge of each other. And I hate that River seems to deliberately take advantage of that. That doesn't make me think her sexy, it makes me think her unkind.
It also makes me wonder about her history with the Doctor when she says "Rule One: The Doctor lies." That does not sound promising at all.
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Date: 2010-06-28 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-29 06:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-28 10:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-29 06:15 pm (UTC)And honestly? A part of me understands the impulse. I've had a hard time understanding how people can hate Martha, or Nyssa, or Sarah Jane, or in the case of one friend, Charley. *g* But the problem comes when instead of listening to their reasons, you just assume there must be something "wrong" with that person. (I wrote a rant on just that subject when it came to 'shipping, once, ages ago, and every now and then I still get hits on it. *grin*) It's the crowd mentality, really. No matter how much we supposedly celebrate our individuality in fandom, when it really comes down to it, most people tend to react with: "You are not following the majority, ergo you are flawed." :-P
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Date: 2010-06-28 10:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-29 06:22 pm (UTC)(I actually thought about listing some of the female characters I *do* like in Who-dom, but decided a) that would sound like protesting too much and b) my record (http://www.whofic.com/viewuser.php?uid=1049) really should speak for itself. ;-) )
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Date: 2010-06-29 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-29 06:44 pm (UTC)I don't know. I'm definitely curious to see what her story IS, if only because I still have hopes Moffat's going to surprise us. *g*
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Date: 2010-06-29 08:02 am (UTC)Also how is being a Rose/Doctor fan still being used as a reason to dismiss those who disagree?! FFS it's been 4 seasons (practically) since she was a regular and 2 seasons (again, counting the specials) since the appeared.
People who can't come up with a better argument than the above just need to stay out of fandom. Grrr.
Also I kinda love the idea
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Date: 2010-06-30 01:47 am (UTC)Also how is being a Rose/Doctor fan still being used as a reason to dismiss those who disagree?! FFS it's been 4 seasons (practically) since she was a regular and 2 seasons (again, counting the specials) since she appeared.
Well, I've seen enough rabid 'shippers in a variety of fandoms who *would* hate a character just because they "threaten" the OTP. So I get where the mentality comes from, and there probably are a few Doctor/Rose 'shippers for whom it may be just that simple. It's the blanket lumping of everyone who dislikes River into the same, tiny, fanatical basket that drives me up the wall. :-P
(How've you been incidentally? Haven't seen or chatted with you in a while and I'm soooooo out of the habit of getting on IM anymore that most days I forget entirely. *sheepish grin* Any good videos in the works? I'm working on my SECOND S5 DW one. :-o )
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Date: 2010-06-29 09:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-30 01:51 am (UTC)It wasn't enough to ruin the episode - or even the ending - for me anyway.
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Date: 2010-06-29 10:00 am (UTC)The Pandorica Opens was the first ep in which I found myself liking River, much to my surprise and relief. I LOATHED her in SitL/FotD and disliked her in ToA/F&S. Even as River impressed me in TPO by actually showing how great she is rather than merely acting like we should take her word for it, I still can't think of the way she was in SitL without gritting my teeth. While the last two eps of this series redeemed her to me, her role in the wedding as the Most Special Snowflake (she apparently remembers even before Amy so she can bring the journal! And she might be married to the Doctor!) annoyed me again. *sigh*
Maybe her smugness is supposed to be her flaw? For that theory to make sense, it really ought to get her into trouble, which hasn't happened yet.
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Date: 2010-06-30 02:01 am (UTC)And if it hasn't happened yet, it probably isn't going to. Or at least if it does, she won't learn anything from it since it's a character trait we know she'll have until the day she dies. *wry grin*
Like I said, I'm getting to a point where I can tolerate her presence in an episode (even enjoy it when she's being awesome and proactive instead of a know-it-all) but I'm not quite at the liking point just yet. Maybe next season? :-)
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Date: 2010-06-29 03:44 pm (UTC)I prefer characters to have some smidgen of vulnerability. I didn't like River in SitL/FotD until she expressed some doubt in Ten, for example. This season I know I'm supposed to think she's awesome and mysterious, that I should be intrigued by her. And yes, she's done some amazing things. But I wasn't truly interested in River until her encounter with the Dalek in TBB. Now I want to know why. Now she's interesting. I wish this had happened so much earlier.
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Date: 2010-06-29 04:32 pm (UTC)So, yes. You hit the nail on the head.
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Date: 2010-06-29 04:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-29 05:09 pm (UTC)I do feel really bad for people who dislike Rose, because she was RTD's darling and you just couldn't escape her. Furthermore, an asexual doctor suddenly had a love interest and she was portrayed as being more important to the doctor than other companions which was of course aggravating to the fans who grew up with Jo Grant or Sarah Jane, and e.t.c.
And now there is River, who is supposed to be even more important. If her character is developed well, and we get to see why she is THE River Song, she might become likable.
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Date: 2010-06-29 05:33 pm (UTC)That reminds me of people assuming I don't like Gwen Cooper because a) she gets in the way of Jack/Ianto or b) I hate strong female characters. It is neither. It's about who she is as a character and how the writers treat her. Period. I know you love her, and are probably more worried by the news there is going to be a season four then excited since you were hoping for her to be safe. I also know we're both fans of Martha and Romana (strong female characters), and you've told me you might ship Jack/Ianto if you saw their relationship the way I do. I'm sure you can understand I have reasons for disliking Gwen that aren't about 'shipping or her gender.
All I ask from fandom as a whole is this: stop assuming that people who like or dislike a particular character that you feel differently about must have certain traits. It's a surefire way to make them a lot LESS likely to come around to your way of thinking. :-P
Well said.
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Date: 2010-06-29 06:31 pm (UTC)I am trying. Maybe I'll be surprised and there will be a scene in the next season that chances my opinion of her, but for now, She's my least favorite companion.
As for Alex Kingston I saw her as Mrs. Bennet in Lost in Austen. She did a good job making Mrs. Bennet not some ditzy society wife. Which tells me my dislike of River has nothing to do with the actor (as would probably be the case if Tom Cruise would ever appear on DW, which thankfully is a slim chance) and more on how the character was written.
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Date: 2010-06-29 06:31 pm (UTC)I like River most of the time (like most characters!), but this was indeed worrying, what you pointed out: once we pass that midpoint and it's a younger River just getting to know the all-knowing Doctor for the first time - ugh, that could be awful. The gender and power dynamics...I can't figure out River's timeline very much, but hopefully her first Doctor is a kind and young-hearted one, to overcome that. I think Eleven, for example, would be more careful with River's emotions than Ten. Though maybe those early encounters are what caused River to be so happily balls-out with the Doctor all the time - giving as good as she got! :)
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Date: 2010-06-29 06:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-28 04:42 am (UTC)