So yesterday while I went to church Sheeyun took Chun Woo to hockey practice. After church, I messaged to find out if they were going to lunch, but got no response. I was tempted by the subject of the upcoming adult ed, "What do we believe?" so I went to that and kept a weather eye on my phone.
The class was led by my choir colleague Jim, who sings baritone, and who minored in Classical Greek as an undergraduate. I had a vague idea that we'd describe what tenets we adhere to as individuals, which I thought would be interesting.
Not too surprisingly, I was wrong. I was a little surprised, though, to find that we were going to discuss our views on scripture. I was more surprised to find, gradually, that Jim seemed to be taking a "Socratic approach." The quotation marks are because it never became clear to me that we were going anyplace in particular. But he certainly proceeded by asking questions, and increasingly I got the impression that they were supposed to be Provocative.
Did we believe the Bible was true? (no definition of "true")
Did we have to use scriptures in worship?
Did we believe there was other inspired speech/writing?
Were they the same as the Bible? (no definition of "the same")
Should we use them in worship?
What about the Koran? The writings of Joseph Smith? Should we use those in worship?
He was sure we all knew who Joseph Campbell was. (I don't know why, and I wouldn't bet on it.) Joseph Campbell suggested that all traditions are approaching Central Mystery from different angles. What did we make of that?
Why do we believe in the Bible? Because it's true? ("true" still undefined)
And he kept shifting around from "inspired" to "faith" to "true" and so on, as if they were synonyms. I'm fine with those terms being synonyms for some people, but I am not one of them.
I was relieved when Chun Woo phoned and I left a couple of minutes early.
I found the whole thing weird and unpleasant enough that I told Sheeyun about it. I now paraphrase wildly.
"Well," he said, "Jim talks a lot about how he learned Greek, but not about literature he's read in Greek, nor about how having his Greek informs his understanding of the world."
And through conversation with Sheeyun, it dawned on me that most likely Jim wasn't engaging in conversation, but playing the role of a particular sort of teacher.
I will of course not go to the three future iterations of the class. It would only make me and everyone else crazy. I hope it isn't obvious that I'm not-going. :/ But think on, skipping coffee fellowship should take care of that....
Addendum: Sheeyun said that I am too generous and think too highly of people who aren't intellectually sophisticated. But I don't think that's remotely like my approach. What I found missing was the elements of conversation: mutuality, and responsiveness to query and to contributions. I don't think conversation is that sophisticated.
It all made me a little sad.
Talking with Sheeyun helped.
Writing about it made me a little sad again, but maybe that'll pass off even better now.
I hope.
The class was led by my choir colleague Jim, who sings baritone, and who minored in Classical Greek as an undergraduate. I had a vague idea that we'd describe what tenets we adhere to as individuals, which I thought would be interesting.
Not too surprisingly, I was wrong. I was a little surprised, though, to find that we were going to discuss our views on scripture. I was more surprised to find, gradually, that Jim seemed to be taking a "Socratic approach." The quotation marks are because it never became clear to me that we were going anyplace in particular. But he certainly proceeded by asking questions, and increasingly I got the impression that they were supposed to be Provocative.
Did we believe the Bible was true? (no definition of "true")
Did we have to use scriptures in worship?
Did we believe there was other inspired speech/writing?
Were they the same as the Bible? (no definition of "the same")
Should we use them in worship?
What about the Koran? The writings of Joseph Smith? Should we use those in worship?
He was sure we all knew who Joseph Campbell was. (I don't know why, and I wouldn't bet on it.) Joseph Campbell suggested that all traditions are approaching Central Mystery from different angles. What did we make of that?
Why do we believe in the Bible? Because it's true? ("true" still undefined)
And he kept shifting around from "inspired" to "faith" to "true" and so on, as if they were synonyms. I'm fine with those terms being synonyms for some people, but I am not one of them.
I was relieved when Chun Woo phoned and I left a couple of minutes early.
I found the whole thing weird and unpleasant enough that I told Sheeyun about it. I now paraphrase wildly.
"Well," he said, "Jim talks a lot about how he learned Greek, but not about literature he's read in Greek, nor about how having his Greek informs his understanding of the world."
And through conversation with Sheeyun, it dawned on me that most likely Jim wasn't engaging in conversation, but playing the role of a particular sort of teacher.
I will of course not go to the three future iterations of the class. It would only make me and everyone else crazy. I hope it isn't obvious that I'm not-going. :/ But think on, skipping coffee fellowship should take care of that....
Addendum: Sheeyun said that I am too generous and think too highly of people who aren't intellectually sophisticated. But I don't think that's remotely like my approach. What I found missing was the elements of conversation: mutuality, and responsiveness to query and to contributions. I don't think conversation is that sophisticated.
It all made me a little sad.
Talking with Sheeyun helped.
Writing about it made me a little sad again, but maybe that'll pass off even better now.
I hope.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 03:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 03:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 04:25 am (UTC)Likely many of them sat there feeling squirmy but not understanding as you do the issues with his framing and approach. I felt uncomfortable with so much stuff as a child and a young adult that I sat and swallowed with an external smile so that no one around me (especially those with power) could see my true thoughts.
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Date: 2020-01-14 11:47 am (UTC)I realized afterward that I really had no idea how others were liking it-- less than I usually would, because I was increasingly stressed.
I do know that Spencer* and I are delighted with each other, and that that held during the class.
* The guy whose wrote as a sermon note:
nightcrawlers
nightcrawlers
nightcrawlers
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 03:22 am (UTC)(We had a guest deacon on Sunday who had me wanting to jump out of my seat and run away... he talked, among other things, about "transgenderism." I wished for a rocketship to take me away...)
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Date: 2020-01-14 11:49 am (UTC)About the guest deacon-- oh, I'm so sorry. :(
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Date: 2020-01-14 03:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 11:51 am (UTC)I also, in my pastoring days, thought it was important to define that for discussion purposes. And to distinguish it from the brisk "well, I'll sign to that list" on the one hand, and "I'm squeezing my eyes really tight and pretending hard because that's what you're supposed to do" on the other.