WEBVTT Kind: captions; Language: en 00:00:05.001 --> 00:00:10.001 If you've spent any time online recently, you'll know that the internet is a 00:00:10.001 --> 00:00:12.000 really wild place. 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:17.000 It feels as if we're learning in startling ways here 30 years on that the norms 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:22.000 that we have in the real world don't really carry over into our online spaces. 00:00:22.001 --> 00:00:25.000 But what if it didn't have to be that way? 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:31.000 What would we need for society to be better online and governed online in the 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 same ways that it's governed in the real world? 00:00:33.001 --> 00:00:36.001 Hi everyone, I'm Chris Freeland and I'm a librarian at the Internet Archive. 00:00:36.001 --> 00:00:39.000 I want to welcome you to today's book talk. 00:00:39.001 --> 00:00:43.001 In Governable Spaces, author Nathan Schneider explores how we can transform 00:00:43.001 --> 00:00:48.000 digital spaces into more democratic and creative environments inspired by 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.001 governance legacies of the past. 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:55.000 Joining Nathan for today's conversation will be Lily Arani, an author, professor 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:59.000 at the University of California San Diego, and faculty director of the UC 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:01.000 San Diego Labor Center. 00:01:01.001 --> 00:01:04.000 As we start up here, I'd like to make sure that you have grabbed 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.001 your copy of Governable Spaces. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.001 Duncan, who's working behind the scenes here today with Caitlin, hello both of 00:01:09.001 --> 00:01:13.000 you and thank you, is going to share a link out in the chat so that you can 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:18.001 either download and read the free open access edition or you can purchase it in 00:01:18.001 --> 00:01:22.000 print from a number of booksellers that Nathan has listed on his website. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.001 So before we dive in, let's take care of some logistics. 00:01:26.001 --> 00:01:28.001 Please use the chat to say hello. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.001 Introduce yourself and let us know where you're joining in from today. 00:01:32.001 --> 00:01:34.000 Our chat is open for discussion. 00:01:34.001 --> 00:01:39.001 Please keep it relevant and respectful and feel free to drop in questions using 00:01:39.001 --> 00:01:44.000 the chat for our panelists to pick up during our Q&A session as we round towards 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:45.001 the end of our discussion today. 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.001 Now a question that always comes up. 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.001 Yes, we are recording this session and tomorrow all participants will receive an 00:01:52.001 --> 00:01:56.001 email that contains a link to that recording, the links that we're sharing here 00:01:56.001 --> 00:01:59.000 in the chat, as well as the chat transcript. 00:01:59.001 --> 00:02:02.001 So you don't need to be worried about furiously writing everything down. 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:04.000 We're capturing all of it. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:08.000 It'll be shared on Internet Archive tomorrow and you'll get an 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.001 email in your inbox. 00:02:10.001 --> 00:02:14.000 So now I would like to welcome Dave Hanson to the screen. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.000 Dave is the executive director of Authors Alliance, who are a 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:18.001 co-host for these BookTalks. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.001 And Dave's going to help provide additional background for today's conversation. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:24.001 Over to you, Dave. 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:27.000 Hey, Chris. 00:02:27.001 --> 00:02:28.000 Hi, everyone. 00:02:28.001 --> 00:02:30.000 I'm really glad to be back. 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.001 We've had a hiatus over the summer with our BookTalks series. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.001 And it's, yeah, it's really exciting to get started again. 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.001 We have a great lineup for this fall. 00:02:42.001 --> 00:02:46.001 So thank you to the many people who are back, for those of you who haven't been 00:02:46.001 --> 00:02:53.000 with us, Authors Alliance and Internet Archive co-sponsor this 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:58.000 BookTalk series, because we have a lot of things in common when it comes to 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:04.001 trying to understand and address issues related to access to knowledge and the 00:03:04.001 --> 00:03:07.001 free exchange of ideas, especially on the Internet. 00:03:08.001 --> 00:03:15.000 So which I think we're going to get into a bit today with governable spaces. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:22.000 As I think about how authors exchange their ideas with the world and how we can 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:28.001 best support them in doing that, so much of it depends on having well-run spaces 00:03:28.001 --> 00:03:31.001 online for those types of interactions to happen. 00:03:32.001 --> 00:03:36.000 And for those of you who know Authors Alliance, we spend a lot of time thinking 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:41.000 about law and policy. And actually, over the last few years, we found ourselves 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:48.000 more and more involved in some of the legal disputes around governance of online 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:54.000 spaces and what kind of legal rules and liability rules attached to online 00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:01.000 providers when they're hosting content from authors and others. So 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:05.000 really, really excited for this talk today. I guess I should say a little bit 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.001 about Authors Alliance, for those of you who are 00:04:08.001 --> 00:04:10.000 new and haven't heard of us before. 00:04:11.001 --> 00:04:16.001 So Authors Alliance is a nonprofit that was formed about 10 years ago by authors 00:04:16.001 --> 00:04:22.000 who really have as their main objective to have their works be read. They want to 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:27.000 benefit the world by seeing widespread dissemination of their works and want to 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:33.001 see the kind of maximum reach and impact of their writing. And so 00:04:33.001 --> 00:04:40.001 we have about 3,000 members, authors of all 00:04:40.001 --> 00:04:47.000 types, everyone from Nobel laureates to journalists to fan fiction writers, and 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:51.001 kind of everything in between. And what really unites us is that we want to see 00:04:51.001 --> 00:04:58.000 the world become a better place through the addition of our creative outputs. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:04.001 Membership is free, so I would be remiss if I did not invite you to join. You are 00:05:04.001 --> 00:05:11.001 very welcome to join and doing so gives a few benefits. One is a closer 00:05:11.001 --> 00:05:16.000 connection to us so that you can help inform kind of the direction that we go and 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:22.000 help us voice the, provide a platform for the voice of authors who want to 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:28.001 support the public interest. And you also hear more about some of the resources 00:05:28.001 --> 00:05:34.001 that we put out, particularly educational resources to help authors navigate some 00:05:34.001 --> 00:05:38.001 of the complex law and policy issues that they face, especially online. 00:05:40.001 --> 00:05:47.001 So with that, I'm excited to be able to introduce our guests today. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:54.000 So first is Lily Irani, who is an associate professor of communication and 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:59.001 science studies at the University of California, San Diego, where she is the 00:05:59.001 --> 00:06:02.001 faculty director of the UC San Diego Labor Center. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.001 She's the author of Chasing Innovation, Making Entrepreneurial Citizens in Modern 00:06:09.001 --> 00:06:16.000 India, published by Princeton University Press, and also Redacted 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:23.000 with Jesse Marks, published by Taller California. She organizes tech workers 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:28.000 coalition San Diego and serves on the steering committee of the transparent and 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:34.001 responsible use of surveillance technology SD coalition and the board of 00:06:34.001 --> 00:06:41.000 the United Taxi Workers San Diego. She is co-founder of data worker organization 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:47.000 projects and activism tool Turkup to Khan. I think I said that right. I googled 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.000 it, but I found no pronunciation guide. 00:06:50.001 --> 00:06:56.001 So Lily will be moderating and in conversation with Nathan Schneider, 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:02.001 who is himself assistant professor of media studies at the University of Colorado 00:07:02.001 --> 00:07:09.000 Boulder, where he leads the Media Economies Design Lab and the MA program in 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:15.001 media and public engagement. He's the author of four books, the most recent we're 00:07:15.001 --> 00:07:19.001 going to hear about today, Governable Spaces Democratic Design for Online Life, 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:26.000 published by the University of California Press, and also author of Everything 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.001 for Everyone, The Radical Tradition That is Shaping the Next Economy, published 00:07:30.001 --> 00:07:37.001 by Bold Type Books in 2018. So I think I have said enough. I had longer bios that 00:07:37.001 --> 00:07:42.001 I could have pulled from, but both of these folks know what they're talking 00:07:42.001 --> 00:07:49.000 about, which is part of the point of some of these introductions. And if you've 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:53.001 read anything, even just a little bit of Governable Spaces, I think you'll 00:07:53.001 --> 00:08:00.001 appreciate that this is touching on a very important issue right now. So with 00:08:00.001 --> 00:08:05.001 that, I will turn it over to Lily and Nathan. Thanks. 00:08:09.001 --> 00:08:16.001 Oh my god, hi. This is so exciting to be here to celebrate your book. I've known 00:08:16.001 --> 00:08:23.001 Nathan for a long time, you all. I think we met. You were a journalist 00:08:23.001 --> 00:08:28.001 activist and I was a grad student activist, and so we've been kind of on this 00:08:28.001 --> 00:08:32.000 learning path together with our different projects, like just trying to build 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:36.000 things with people and then figure out the words to even talk about what are the 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:41.000 problems that we're facing and like how do we talk about it with other people. So 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:45.001 yeah, like this book just shares so much learning that you've done and so much 00:08:45.001 --> 00:08:48.001 kind of reading and thinking you've done with other people. And so I'm really 00:08:48.001 --> 00:08:53.000 grateful for you overcoming writer's perfectionisms and putting it out into the 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:00.000 world. I thought maybe a place we could start the conversation is starting 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:05.001 with, I don't know, many of us might have an experience of, you know, ex-Twitter, 00:09:06.001 --> 00:09:10.001 which, you know, has for me at least turned into kind of hellscape of crypto spam 00:09:10.001 --> 00:09:15.001 and Elon Musk suing other capitalists for not advertising with him enough. But 00:09:15.001 --> 00:09:21.001 it's always been a place of what you call in like a, you know, really centralized 00:09:21.001 --> 00:09:27.000 form of governance that is convenient for us. And we've done a lot over the last 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.000 decade to like advocate for slightly different kinds of governance, different 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:37.000 content moderation policies. But it doesn't really feel like our culture of 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:40.001 social media or maybe I would say like being here at the border, our culture in 00:09:40.001 --> 00:09:45.000 the US is like moving in the right direction. Like we're, you know, here in San 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:51.000 Diego and on the Cume Island, like we're leaning into strengthening the border, 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:57.000 you know, like anti-immigrant rhetoric as a kind of false solution to a lot of 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.001 the issues we have in our kind of public spaces like housing. So something 00:10:01.001 --> 00:10:07.000 strange and terrible is happening, I worry. And in your book, you write, there's 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:12.001 optimism in the rot, but also you warn that self-governance is not a solution. 00:10:12.001 --> 00:10:18.000 It's a practice for problem solving. So I think that's one of the possibilities 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.001 of where we find ourselves, at least, you know, you and I both live in the United 00:10:22.001 --> 00:10:28.000 States and settle on settler land has been settler colonized. Where do you find 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:32.001 the possibilities for optimism? And where do you think self-governance 00:10:32.001 --> 00:10:34.000 might help? 00:10:35.001 --> 00:10:40.000 Thank you, Lily. And first of all, thank you so much for being in this 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:44.001 conversation. It's always such a pleasure to be with you. I've learned so much 00:10:44.001 --> 00:10:50.001 from your work over the years and from our relationship. And thank you, Dave and 00:10:50.001 --> 00:10:56.000 Chris and Caitlin and the archive and the Authors Alliance for hosting this. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:02.001 These are organizations that are just so deeply resonant with, you know, the 00:11:02.001 --> 00:11:09.000 values I tried to bring into this work. You know, I think we have, you 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:15.001 know, to me, the hope is kind of in plain sight. And that is the kind of 00:11:15.001 --> 00:11:22.000 initial impulse that motivates this book, is this conversation, this series of 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.001 conversations with my mother while I was having trouble with managing a 00:11:27.001 --> 00:11:31.001 complicated email list where somebody was misbehaving on the internet. And I 00:11:31.001 --> 00:11:37.001 started realizing, wow, I'm the admin of this email list. And I didn't really 00:11:37.001 --> 00:11:42.000 know how to address this problem democratically. And nothing in the toolset of 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:47.000 the email list was helping me do that. It was all about how I could just make the 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:54.000 problem go away by removing people or otherwise asserting raw power. And 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.001 meanwhile, having conversations with my mother about her garden club, which she 00:11:58.001 --> 00:12:03.001 had just been elected president of the garden club for her neighborhood. And I 00:12:03.001 --> 00:12:08.001 was just struck by how that garden club had more sophisticated practices of 00:12:08.001 --> 00:12:15.000 governance than I had ever experienced in any online space. And so that's, it 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.001 was just kind of this shocking shock recognition that maybe 00:12:21.001 --> 00:12:28.001 the ways of solving these problems with online space are right in front of us. 00:12:28.001 --> 00:12:35.000 And there are things, there are practices that we have known before, both in the 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:40.001 context of these colonizer societies, as well as in indigenous communities that 00:12:40.001 --> 00:12:44.000 have preceded them, that we know how to self-govern. 00:12:44.001 --> 00:12:49.001 And actually, we turned off a lot of that knowledge when we go online. And we've 00:12:49.001 --> 00:12:55.000 created tools that don't open doors for that knowledge and that actually inhibit 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.001 it. And this took me on a journey through the history of the development of 00:12:59.001 --> 00:13:04.001 online spaces and how things came to be the way they are. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:10.001 But it also came to, brought me to a recognition of the stakes. These things that 00:13:10.001 --> 00:13:15.001 are hidden in plain sight, these garden clubs, are actually an essential fabric 00:13:15.001 --> 00:13:21.000 of democratic life. This is an insight that goes back to like Alexis de 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:27.000 Tocqueville, C.L.R. James, W.B. Du Bois, so many thinkers on democracy 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:33.000 in recent centuries have stressed that you can't have democracy at larger scales 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:39.000 unless you're also developing it and practicing it at the scale of everyday life. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:47.000 And that to me, that's what connects this question of like, how 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:53.001 do we run an email list to the question of what is going on in our democracy as a 00:13:53.001 --> 00:13:59.001 whole? Why are we having this resurgent authoritarianism, this really scary 00:13:59.001 --> 00:14:05.000 appeal of almost monarchist politics taking hold around the world? 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:12.001 And I think actually that larger scale kind of imaginary of how we run our 00:14:12.001 --> 00:14:19.001 governments and the kind of everyday scale of how we live in our 00:14:19.001 --> 00:14:22.001 online lives are actually intimately connected. 00:14:24.001 --> 00:14:30.000 Nathan, I just realized that you'd also prepared kind of a small overview of the 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.000 book, right? Do you want to actually go into that right now or do you want to 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.000 just keep the conversation going? We can definitely come back to 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.000 picking up some of these threads. 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.000 Yeah, I think we can keep the conversation going. 00:14:41.001 --> 00:14:48.000 Really? Okay. Well, so you talk about, okay, this 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.001 is, you know, like Nathan and I, like we like talked about this before, but I'm 00:14:51.001 --> 00:14:55.001 actually just responding to what you said right now. So like, when you talk about 00:14:55.001 --> 00:15:01.000 Tocqueville and the kinds of skills of democracy that we already have kind of in 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000 plain sight, you know, I also want to kind of draw attention to the fact that 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:10.001 like, you know, the Garden Club is also, you know, the Garden Club is an 00:15:10.001 --> 00:15:15.001 ambivalent tradition, right? Like we've got suburbs in Los Angeles, like I grew 00:15:15.001 --> 00:15:19.001 up in the suburbs of LA, the Garden Club can be like predicated on keeping 00:15:19.001 --> 00:15:23.000 certain people like out of the neighborhood and using the police to do that. 00:15:23.001 --> 00:15:27.000 And in your book, you actually draw, like you start with the Garden Club, but you 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.000 actually kind of take us through examples from like transformative justice and 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:37.000 like abolitionist movement. So like, how, you know, like, what are the kinds of 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:40.000 practices that we have in plain sight? And what are the kinds of practices that 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.001 might require us to learn some different muscles than the ones that we've grown 00:15:45.001 --> 00:15:49.000 up, you know, the ones that we've grown up with, like I, me growing up in the 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:54.000 mall and on commercial social media, and then working in Silicon Valley, like 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.001 there's a lot of democratic muscles I actually didn't have in a kind of society 00:15:58.001 --> 00:16:03.001 that was optimized for me producing cool startup ideas for Sergey Brin to mostly 00:16:03.001 --> 00:16:10.000 own. You know, it was actually in a conversation with you 00:16:10.001 --> 00:16:17.000 some months ago that I realized that, you know, the, what I do as a, as a scholar 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.001 and before that as a journalist is, is the study of negative space, like what are 00:16:21.001 --> 00:16:27.001 the things that we don't, you know, that aren't normal, that could be. And, and 00:16:27.001 --> 00:16:33.001 this book is really an exercise in that. And in order to find those places, you 00:16:33.001 --> 00:16:38.001 know, we have to see where are the cracks in the, in the, in the dominant mold. 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.001 And, and, and I look at a bunch of different cracks out there that I think are, 00:16:44.001 --> 00:16:48.001 are deeply connected. For instance, in the middle of the book, after, after 00:16:48.001 --> 00:16:54.000 exploring this, this history, you know, I look at two particular cracks, 00:16:55.001 --> 00:16:58.001 groups of people who probably wouldn't want to be in a room together, but who I 00:16:58.001 --> 00:17:02.001 think have actually some interesting things in common. 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.000 Those are people who are exploring transformative justice, as you just mentioned. 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.001 People are trying to explore forms of addressing harm and conflict outside of 00:17:14.001 --> 00:17:21.000 violence and incarceration. And then also people trying to build new kinds of 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:27.001 organizations with blockchains in the kind of you know, 00:17:27.001 --> 00:17:32.001 cultures in all sorts of ways. But in both cases, they are, they're, they're 00:17:32.001 --> 00:17:39.001 confronted with a problem. They have to find ways to solve, to, 00:17:39.001 --> 00:17:45.000 to, to do governance, collectively, without relying on someone telling them what 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.000 to do, without relying on a kind of, a kind of admin who's in charge. 00:17:52.001 --> 00:17:57.000 And this is what our online spaces are set up for is for, you know, whoever's 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.001 running the server to be in charge, a kind of top down model that I call implicit 00:18:02.001 --> 00:18:09.001 feudalism. This is the idea that, that you, that on every online 00:18:09.001 --> 00:18:14.000 service on every platform, and don't even think about like the big companies, 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.001 think about the small scale communities first, that, you know, think about your 00:18:18.001 --> 00:18:22.001 group chat, somebody's in charge of that group chat, the system is set up for 00:18:22.001 --> 00:18:29.001 that. And, Black, yeah, absolutely. My students. Pick your 00:18:29.001 --> 00:18:35.000 tool. And yet in these spaces, both whether they're trying to manage a 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:42.000 decentralized blockchain, or address harm in, in neighborhoods, these are spaces 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.001 where people are having to solve problems of collective action and collective 00:18:45.001 --> 00:18:52.000 governance that, that the, the current tools are not set up for. In the case of 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.000 the transformative justice folks, in a lot of their documents out of those 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.001 communities, they've actually just said, even though these are very online 00:18:59.001 --> 00:19:05.000 people, don't do these processes online, our online spaces are not set up for it. 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.001 And to me, that's a really profound indictment. You know, that these are not 00:19:08.001 --> 00:19:12.001 like, people who hate technology, these are people, people are on Instagram all 00:19:12.001 --> 00:19:17.000 the time and all that, but they are, but they know that they're these sensitive 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:22.001 processes of addressing harm. We have not built our technology for that. And, and 00:19:22.001 --> 00:19:27.001 that poses a question to me of like, what would it look like if, if that was, if 00:19:27.001 --> 00:19:31.000 that was the kind of use case that we were building tools around, how would our 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:36.000 tools be different? In the context of blockchains, this is a space where people 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:41.000 are trying to build something that breaks the implicit feudalist logic without 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.001 necessarily using those words. In the sense of trying to create tools that are co 00:19:45.001 --> 00:19:52.000 -governed among multiple participants. And, and, and, and from out of those 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000 technologies, actually, it's created the problem of self-governance in a way that 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:02.000 we haven't seen online before. Like, and as a result, it's forced the development 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.001 of a whole bunch of new governance mechanisms and technologies to solve the 00:20:07.001 --> 00:20:12.000 problem of collective decision making, to enable it to, to, to, to be a practice. 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:18.000 And in some ways that, you know, in both of these cases, they, they, they point 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:23.000 to the, the, the recognition that, oh, this isn't something we've even 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000 tried to address yet. 00:20:25.001 --> 00:20:31.001 And, and as they enter into these challenges, either by refusing to engage on, on 00:20:31.001 --> 00:20:37.000 online, or to actually have to build a whole new set of tools from scratch, it's 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.001 a, it's a reminder of how much that implicit feudalism has been dominant and 00:20:43.001 --> 00:20:48.001 how much actually we haven't really explored the question of what it could look 00:20:48.001 --> 00:20:54.000 like to self-govern online. And it's that design space that above all this book 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:01.000 is an attempt to invite folks into. Yeah. So you're talking about like, where and 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:07.001 how do we like learn possible ways of self-governing? And like, I love this, you 00:21:07.001 --> 00:21:10.001 know, finding the spaces like, you know, finding the spaces, like where nobody, 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.001 where like, there's things that we don't know about that people aren't making. 00:21:15.001 --> 00:21:19.000 Then there's, you're talking about like having the tools to actually support 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:24.001 that, you know, like the capitalist internet programming culture and machine is 00:21:24.001 --> 00:21:28.001 not, you know, it's not, it doesn't have the incentives to like give people 00:21:28.001 --> 00:21:30.000 the time to build those tools. 00:21:31.001 --> 00:21:36.000 But then there's also kind of, I wanted to ask you about time. You know, self 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.001 -governance is really hard. And so one of the things that's been happening in San 00:21:40.001 --> 00:21:46.001 Diego is a bunch of students and I, and also some folks in the DSA here have been 00:21:46.001 --> 00:21:51.000 working with United Taxi Workers San Diego over the last four years. United Taxi 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:55.001 Workers is a taxi worker worker center. And we've been helping them launch an app 00:21:55.001 --> 00:22:00.001 called Ride United that's backed by a cooperative of drivers. And so the app is 00:22:00.001 --> 00:22:04.001 accountable to driver wants and needs. But it's been really tricky to figure out 00:22:04.001 --> 00:22:08.001 like what drivers want to make decisions about, what drivers don't want to make 00:22:08.001 --> 00:22:12.001 decisions about, and then figuring out how to structure our time so that they 00:22:12.001 --> 00:22:16.000 actually have the time to do that because they're working really long days, you 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:19.000 know, they're like always on the road, you know, we've like done workshops in the 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.001 middle of the taxi lot. You know, it took a year just to write the bylaws, you 00:22:23.001 --> 00:22:26.001 know, and a lot of the drivers who are active didn't have the time to actually 00:22:26.001 --> 00:22:28.000 spend the time doing the bylaws. 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.001 So like, how do we, you know, like, what are some of the 00:22:32.001 --> 00:22:34.001 things that are going to be hard for us? 00:22:34.001 --> 00:22:38.001 Like, what should we expect? And like, how do we figure out how to create the 00:22:38.001 --> 00:22:44.001 time that we need and be kind of judicious about that? First of all, it's 00:22:44.001 --> 00:22:50.000 important to recognize that governance is always happening somewhere. And if 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:55.000 you're not doing it, someone else is doing it. And that doesn't mean that it's 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:02.000 easy to pretend, you know, I mean, like, read an account of early startup 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.001 culture, right, you know, or, or watch the social network or whatever. I mean, 00:23:06.001 --> 00:23:13.000 like, you know, these are complicated stories, no matter what. And, you know, 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:18.000 doing governance at large scale, like, investors do that in the stock market, 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.001 right? I mean, that's a, there is a voting structure, there, there is decision 00:23:22.001 --> 00:23:26.001 making structures, there are boards, all these things. So, you know, in some 00:23:26.001 --> 00:23:30.001 respects, I just want to hold that recognition that like, this stuff is happening 00:23:30.001 --> 00:23:37.000 already. It's just that many of us are not cut in on the deal. It's really a 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.001 question not of like, could we possibly self govern, but actually, like, can we 00:23:41.001 --> 00:23:45.000 change the question of who gets to participate? 00:23:47.001 --> 00:23:52.000 And, and, you know, and also, then the question becomes, you know, how do we 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:58.000 design practices that are appropriate to, to our organizations? And, you know, 00:23:58.001 --> 00:24:03.000 that, that requires beginning to recognize that, you know, that there's an 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.001 attention economy here. And there are some things that we want to be really 00:24:06.001 --> 00:24:11.001 involved in some things that we don't. In the book, I explore a bunch of what I 00:24:11.001 --> 00:24:17.000 call governable stacks, contexts where communities have been trying to enlarge 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.001 the space of self governance, I focus on ones that I've been involved in. I see 00:24:20.001 --> 00:24:26.000 there are a few folks from these here in the room, like, May 1, which is a kind 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:31.001 of server hosting cooperative I've been part of for years, social.coop, which is 00:24:31.001 --> 00:24:37.001 a mastodon server that a group of us co govern. And in each case, you know, May 00:24:37.001 --> 00:24:42.001 1, I don't have to be too involved, I go to an annual meeting, put in my two 00:24:42.001 --> 00:24:46.001 cents social.coop, I'm a bit more involved. Also, think of things like my credit 00:24:46.001 --> 00:24:50.001 union, which, you know, I'm not involved in at all, really, but it has a 00:24:50.001 --> 00:24:55.000 stakeholder structure set up for that. And I think we have to recognize that 00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:01.001 there's going to be a topology of participation, there are things that we should 00:25:01.001 --> 00:25:05.000 really be involved in and should put time into. And then there are things where 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.001 we can design them to be essentially accountable to us without us 00:25:08.001 --> 00:25:10.000 having to participate every day. 00:25:11.001 --> 00:25:15.001 And that can change over the life of an organization too. Maybe at the very 00:25:15.001 --> 00:25:19.001 beginning, there's a lot of work involved, but maybe we should design that 00:25:19.001 --> 00:25:25.000 process so that at the end, those drivers can focus on driving, you know, or, or 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.000 whatever, or if they want to be really involved, they can be. But this is a 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:34.001 design space, I think is just beginning. Again, in cases like in the, in the 00:25:34.001 --> 00:25:39.001 crypto world, some of these early experiments have shown the need to really 00:25:39.001 --> 00:25:44.001 better design around attention economies. This is an area of research I've been 00:25:44.001 --> 00:25:49.001 really focusing on now, just wrapping up a paper on precisely that topic of how, 00:25:49.001 --> 00:25:54.000 what kinds of questions should you ask when designing, you know, a governance, 00:25:54.001 --> 00:26:00.001 you know, a governance surface, a system for self governance, 00:26:01.001 --> 00:26:06.001 and, and what is the appropriate level? This is, these are old questions again, 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.001 you know, the, the rural electric cooperatives of 40 something, you know, 00:26:12.001 --> 00:26:16.001 cooperatives that provide electricity just in Colorado, there are hundreds around 00:26:16.001 --> 00:26:20.001 the United States and, you know, many more elsewhere, they've been dealing with 00:26:20.001 --> 00:26:24.001 problems of participation and attention too. You know, and they have different 00:26:24.001 --> 00:26:29.001 ways of addressing that here in Colorado, you know, we have a robot who, you 00:26:29.001 --> 00:26:32.001 know, a person dressed in a robot suit who comes to the annual meetings, you 00:26:32.001 --> 00:26:37.000 know, just part of the way in which we make an effort to make sure it's fun to 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.001 come to your, to your rural electric co-op meeting, maybe in other contexts, you 00:26:41.001 --> 00:26:44.000 know, people have other ways of engaging participation. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.000 In other contexts, we recognize, you know, maybe we need more, maybe we need 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:55.000 less, but, you know, to me, the question here is, first of all, to recognize that 00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:00.000 this is, these are problems we can solve and that we solve in other contexts of 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.001 life. You know, we, we self-govern at local levels and regional levels and 00:27:04.001 --> 00:27:09.001 national levels all the time, and we figure out ways to balance those. 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:15.001 I don't think it's too much to ask to also be able to, to find appropriate ways 00:27:15.001 --> 00:27:21.000 of doing that in our, in our online lives and beyond. Yeah, and one of the things 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:25.001 that also makes me think about those, you know, making sure people have the 00:27:25.001 --> 00:27:30.001 resources to do the participation, and that could also mean, like, child care at 00:27:30.001 --> 00:27:36.001 the governance meetings. There's this Chiricopticon project. This is a platform 00:27:36.001 --> 00:27:43.001 for Amazon Mechanical Turk, like data, data processing gig workers to report 00:27:43.001 --> 00:27:47.000 employee, basically write reports about how employers are treating them so that 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.001 they can share it with other workers. And for 10 years, that was kind of running 00:27:50.001 --> 00:27:55.000 on me and like six silver men and some chirp worker moderators, kind of like 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.000 running on fumes. We didn't really have time to self-govern, didn't really have 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:04.000 the skills, frankly, either. But then over the last five years, we got a grant 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:10.000 actually to pay worker, Turk workers themselves, to figure out how they wanted to 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.001 govern the system and make decisions both about the system and what kind of 00:28:13.001 --> 00:28:18.000 advocacy workers would do. And so, you know, Turk workers were being paid like 18 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.001 bucks an hour, because if they weren't getting paid for that, then they would 00:28:21.001 --> 00:28:26.000 basically be having to do Amazon Mechanical Turk work to make ends meet. So like 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.000 fundraising can actually be a really important way of like doing the social 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.001 provisioning of making sure that you don't have only like middle class, upper 00:28:33.001 --> 00:28:36.001 middle class people who have the time to be in these spaces. And you actually 00:28:36.001 --> 00:28:41.001 talk about that a little bit, citing some feminist philosophers talking about 00:28:41.001 --> 00:28:48.001 social provisioning, which I really appreciated in your book. So I 00:28:48.001 --> 00:28:53.001 guess like with that, like I kind of wanted to talk about like other kinds of 00:28:53.001 --> 00:28:57.001 resourcing as well. So like one of the challenges that sometimes comes up with 00:28:57.001 --> 00:29:01.000 these projects that I've been involved in is, you know, actually finding the 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:06.001 financial resources to give, you know, in my case, like workers who are most 00:29:06.001 --> 00:29:12.000 directly impacted the time to be involved in the actual design of it, getting the 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.001 financial resources for capital investment, you know, like venture capitalists 00:29:15.001 --> 00:29:21.000 aren't going around looking for community run projects that are going to run 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:25.001 cloneable, you know, not meant to be at scale community software. 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:33.000 You know, in the case of the taxi, the cooperative taxi app, we basically like 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.000 cobbled the money together through a bunch of different brands. And like there's, 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.000 you know, taking a tiny bit of the fees from the rides people take that is 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.001 eventually supposed to help pay for the software bills. 00:29:44.001 --> 00:29:51.000 You know, how do we think about like trying to do this cooperative democratic 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:56.001 space design and building work in a kind of like policy space and you talk about 00:29:56.001 --> 00:29:59.000 this in the last chapter of the book about like a policy space is like deeply 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:04.001 imperfect for supporting it like we can be struggling for policies that make it 00:30:04.001 --> 00:30:08.001 easier or incentivize these things like I can see that as one branch, but then 00:30:08.001 --> 00:30:14.001 also like, you know, the taxi app, the taxi app is operated by a private company 00:30:14.001 --> 00:30:18.001 that's run by a nice guy who is listening to the drivers, you know, and he but 00:30:18.001 --> 00:30:21.001 he's a private company, like we don't own the software because we couldn't get it 00:30:21.001 --> 00:30:25.001 together. So how do we think about doing this work like imperfectly and 00:30:25.001 --> 00:30:31.000 transitionally? Yeah, no, I appreciate so much what you say about that social 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:37.000 provisioning. We really do have to recognize that governance is an expense in 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:42.000 some respects, it's something that should cost something. And it does again in 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:46.000 our other organizational context, right? And for whether you're talking about 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:52.000 government or nonprofits or corporations, all of them expend money on governance, 00:30:52.001 --> 00:30:57.001 they pay people who do governance work. And we need to understand that that is, 00:30:57.001 --> 00:31:03.000 you know, is an expectation and should, you know, should be a part of how we 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:08.000 think about this challenge. You have to provision one way or another to support 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:14.000 this this labor. And if we had an economy that better honored self governance 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:20.000 in mutualist activity, I think that would be, you know, it would be a very 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.001 reasonable thing to ask. And in context, like, for instance, agricultural 00:31:24.001 --> 00:31:29.000 cooperatives, real electric cooperatives, credit unions, where we have policy 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:35.000 structures to support co governance, you know, people get paid to participate in 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:40.001 governance. It's not, you know, this is in some respects a solved problem in the 00:31:40.001 --> 00:31:44.001 context where we've decided to solve it historically. And, you know, at the end 00:31:44.001 --> 00:31:49.001 of this book, it starts out with our intimate everyday, you know, communities 00:31:49.001 --> 00:31:56.000 that we inhabit online. But it ultimately does pose the question of policy, and 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:01.000 it has to, because we can't get to that work of, you know, self governance, 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:06.001 ultimately, unless there's real stake and ownership. And, and I think this 00:32:06.001 --> 00:32:11.000 requires creating frameworks that are, you know, competitive with something like 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:16.000 venture capital, that enable community ownership, and, and, and in turn 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:21.000 governance. And I really think that this is achievable. I've been working for 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000 many years with cooperatives and related kinds of organizations in tech. And over 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:33.000 and over, I see very reasonable ideas that just because of policy structures, are 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:38.001 not able to access capital for, for things that just should happen, you know, in 00:32:38.001 --> 00:32:45.000 the United States, for instance, we have a situation where, where rural broadband 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.000 is not available in many, many places where it needs to be. And this is a problem 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.001 we solved before with the with rural electrification, as I described, we solved 00:32:54.001 --> 00:32:59.001 it with federal loan programs that are revenue positive for the government, they 00:32:59.001 --> 00:33:05.001 don't cost anything, but that that are set up to support collective ownership. We 00:33:05.001 --> 00:33:10.001 could be doing this for any kind of business, it might not be the same kinds of 00:33:10.001 --> 00:33:17.000 things that we get with, with, with venture capital, but reasonable 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:22.001 proven businesses should be able to access capital. And right now they can't, you 00:33:22.001 --> 00:33:26.001 know, we have situations like, for instance, when there was a time when the city 00:33:26.001 --> 00:33:32.001 of Austin enabled the development of a, of a nonprofit ride share service, I used 00:33:32.001 --> 00:33:36.001 it, it worked just fine. It was much better for the drivers than Uber and Lyft. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:44.001 It took tiny fees in comparison. And yet it just was not able to, to 00:33:44.001 --> 00:33:50.000 compete with companies that are able to pour billions and billions into, into 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:57.000 controlling markets. And, and so we really need to ensure that 00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:02.000 there's the capacity to, to direct capital to shared ownership to reasonable 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:07.000 things that people want to do. Again, I think this is, this is more possible than 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:12.000 it sounds. And in other sectors, through our history, we've done it, you know, a 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:16.000 few months ago, I was down at CoBank, which is a cooperative bank for, for 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:22.001 agricultural cooperatives in Denver. And the CEO was talking about how much 00:34:22.001 --> 00:34:27.001 investment they're doing now in data centers, co-ops, which you might not know 00:34:27.001 --> 00:34:33.000 our co-ops like Land O'Lakes are running farmer owned AI, you know, they're 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:38.000 already doing cooperative AI, because they have access to capital through 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:46.000 provisions developed in, you know, in a century ago. And, and now they're 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.000 able to deploy that and be on the cutting edge right now. We need to enable that 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:57.001 in any industry. And through that kind of policy design, and this really comes 00:34:57.001 --> 00:35:02.000 down to a way of rethinking how we approach solving problems with the internet, 00:35:02.001 --> 00:35:08.000 right, rather than hauling the CEOs into Congress and saying you solve this 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.001 problem from the top down, I think much more we need to ask ourselves with every 00:35:12.001 --> 00:35:17.000 problem that we confront, could we solve this problem with self governance, 00:35:17.001 --> 00:35:23.000 rather than with feudalism, you know, could we solve this problem by enabling the 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:28.000 people closest to the problem to solve it, rather than turning once again to 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:34.001 essentially reinforcing the power of a very few elite leaders of these 00:35:34.001 --> 00:35:38.001 companies. One of the things you talk about in the book is like, could we 00:35:38.001 --> 00:35:43.001 actually have policies that require the people closest to the problem to actually 00:35:43.001 --> 00:35:50.001 be the ones charged with solving it? So, like, in Canada, there's a sociologist, 00:35:50.001 --> 00:35:54.001 Eric Olin, right, and he has a great book called How to be an Anti-Capitalist in 00:35:54.001 --> 00:35:59.000 the 21st Century, but also Envisioning Really Utopias, and he talks about, like 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:04.000 in the 1970s in Quebec, there's a big social, there's like some kind of social 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.001 movement, and they basically got the government to pass a policy that funded 00:36:08.001 --> 00:36:14.000 child care for everybody. But the government would only pay for the child care if 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:19.000 it was paying a cooperatively governed child care facility. People could pay for 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.001 their futilely governed child care if they wanted to out of their private pocket, 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.001 but the government subsidy would only go to the cooperatively owned, and so 00:36:26.001 --> 00:36:32.001 that's like interplay between like making a law that actually requires more fair 00:36:32.001 --> 00:36:38.000 and dignified governance, that then actually like enables those kinds of the 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.000 resources to flow to people who want to build those kinds of collectives or 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:47.000 institutions seem really promising. And I mentioned that because you said 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:53.000 something about, you know, we need to have these like self-governed entities 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:57.001 compete with capital, but we can't always compete with something that's got a big 00:36:57.001 --> 00:37:02.000 runway of venture capital, but we can have policies that resource them, so we can 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.001 have, you know, in Austin, didn't the Austin co-op take off because the city 00:37:07.001 --> 00:37:10.001 actually kicked Uber and Lyft out for a while? 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.001 And Minnesota, Minneapolis actually just, well, they just passed a minimum wage 00:37:15.001 --> 00:37:19.001 law that negatively impacted Uber, and Uber and Lyft cried and they left the 00:37:19.001 --> 00:37:26.001 city, and so now the city is actually giving like $150,000 to form, you know, to 00:37:26.001 --> 00:37:28.000 basically form like alternative ride shares. 00:37:28.001 --> 00:37:34.001 So I'm hoping that Minneapolis sticks to its guns, and you know, but I think 00:37:34.001 --> 00:37:39.001 competing isn't always going to even actually be a realistic thing. We can have 00:37:39.001 --> 00:37:43.001 policies to make it so you don't have to have competition with venture capital, 00:37:43.001 --> 00:37:49.000 right? Well, you can use different words here, and I think, you know, words 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:53.000 matter immensely, but that story of Austin I think is a really fascinating one 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:57.000 because it wasn't that they kicked Uber and Lyft out. They said, Uber and Lyft, 00:37:57.001 --> 00:38:01.001 you have to follow the law. Oh, like literally. You have to think of 00:38:01.001 --> 00:38:03.000 your drivers for safety, 00:38:03.001 --> 00:38:10.000 and 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.000 Uber and everything about, you know, the current structure of our economy is set 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:21.001 up around, you know, it was created. I mean, venture capital was 00:38:21.001 --> 00:38:28.000 essentially non-scalable until 1979 when a series of changes to the tax 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:34.001 code and rules around pension funds enabled, you know, the California pension 00:38:34.001 --> 00:38:39.001 funds to start investing in venture capital, and we have to recognize that the 00:38:39.001 --> 00:38:46.001 rules as they are today are created, and the ideas 00:38:46.001 --> 00:38:53.001 about what can work, you know, are crafted, and I think we need to 00:38:53.001 --> 00:38:58.000 design those rules much more around enabling democratic problem solving and 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.001 enabling shared ownership and shared benefit. In fact, like those electric 00:39:02.001 --> 00:39:07.001 cooperatives I keep mentioning, that loan program was kind of indifferent to the 00:39:07.001 --> 00:39:14.000 structure that came out, but actually it was designed in a way to support 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:19.000 communities coming together to solve these problems, and so it was really the 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:26.000 cooperative that took hold in that context. The case that you're describing with 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:33.000 Montreal, you know, it's rooted in earlier work in Italy, you know, that also 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:40.000 really designed policy around community-governed solutions to 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:45.001 health care problems and to care challenges, and, you know, and again, if we 00:39:45.001 --> 00:39:51.001 centered democratic problem solving as a way of approaching these questions, I 00:39:51.001 --> 00:39:56.000 don't think we have to, you know, kick out other models, recognize that these 00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.001 other things are going to be there, they're going to show up, but we can design 00:40:00.001 --> 00:40:07.000 policy that recognizes, you know, this needs to be a viable option, 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:14.000 this needs to be possible, and right now often, you know, that capacity to 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:19.000 assemble and solve problems democratically is just not even there, and this is 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:23.000 the case with this financial policy we've been talking about, but it's also the 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.001 case just in the user experience designs of the technologies we use, you know, 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.000 you mentioned Slack, for instance, like try to figure out, you know, I'm in a 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:36.001 number of communities on Slack that try to do like boating and try to like make 00:40:36.001 --> 00:40:41.000 collective decisions together, and we can kind of hack it, but it always feels 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.000 like we're working against the tool, you know, what would it look like to build 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.000 tools where self-governance was kind of the first-class default assumption of 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.001 what you're doing, and that's the, you know, the challenge I'm posing both for, 00:40:55.001 --> 00:40:59.001 you know, the practice of user experience design as well as for policy design. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.001 Yeah, there are a lot of really cool examples in the book of kind of technology 00:41:04.001 --> 00:41:10.000 designs and systems that, you know, instead of defaulting to assigning someone to 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.000 be the administrator or moderator, like defaulting to assigning, the whole 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:18.000 community is needing to vote on like whether to kick somebody out or to take down 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.000 the post, like there's a lot of examples of actual things people have built in 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:25.001 here that we can all go and look for and see if we can incorporate some of those. 00:41:28.001 --> 00:41:34.000 There was one thing that I, okay, so like I guess my last question that is like, 00:41:34.001 --> 00:41:38.001 you know, we were talking about the capacity for self-governance, like sometimes 00:41:38.001 --> 00:41:43.001 if, you know, it's something that there's a lot of ways we do it in our day-to 00:41:43.001 --> 00:41:47.000 -day life, but there's also a lot of ways where for certain kinds of systems, for 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:52.000 certain kinds of products and industries, like it's actually really difficult 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.001 because of things like tax codes and regulations and, you know, infinite runways 00:41:56.001 --> 00:42:02.001 of venture capital to write laws in California, I'd say. So like what are some 00:42:02.001 --> 00:42:06.001 of, you know, as we are all, as we try for those of us who are convinced that we 00:42:06.001 --> 00:42:11.000 want to incorporate more of this into our life, like what are some of the things 00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:16.001 that we might have to learn, not just as skills, you know, about how to run 00:42:16.001 --> 00:42:20.001 stuff, but as kind of capacities in our bodies, emotionally, in terms of how we 00:42:20.001 --> 00:42:24.001 relate to each other in order to be able to do this. And for me, one of the 00:42:24.001 --> 00:42:29.000 places this is coming from is, you know, I was, you know, trained in computer 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:34.000 science, you know, intense long work grinds, working on projects, working to 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.000 deadlines, like a real, like, moving fast, the whole moving fast and breaking 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.001 things, like we talk crap about it, but also there's like something in, for me, 00:42:43.001 --> 00:42:47.000 the culture of tech, where I see a lot of people get really excited and just like 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:52.001 to move fast, get frustrated, taking the time to at least have slow discussions 00:42:52.001 --> 00:42:57.001 to teach each other the different things that we know. Like what have you had to 00:42:57.001 --> 00:43:01.001 learn in order to be able to be part of this democratic design? What emotional 00:43:01.001 --> 00:43:08.000 habits have you had to unlearn? Thanks. Yeah, I think this is such a hard 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.001 question. And to me, it really comes, it's hard 00:43:11.001 --> 00:43:13.001 because there's so many different answers. 00:43:14.001 --> 00:43:19.000 And I think it's really important to hold that, that recognition that there is no 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:24.000 one kind of self governance. And I think one of the deep limits of cultures, 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.001 like, you know, for instance, the Garden Club, and it's Robert's Rules of Order, 00:43:28.001 --> 00:43:35.001 and it's kind of, you know, class identities and things like that is that it 00:43:35.001 --> 00:43:39.000 assumes that there's, you know, it's often been out of a culture that assumes 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.001 there's one way of doing self governance. And there's so many, you know, one 00:43:43.001 --> 00:43:47.001 project I've been working on over the years is this ever called governance 00:43:47.001 --> 00:43:54.000 archaeology, trying to gather and synthesize and find a broader 00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:00.000 repertoire of governance practices that have existed through human history and in 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:05.000 diverse cultures. And this is, I think, an opportunity for us to, you know, 00:44:05.001 --> 00:44:11.000 explore, explore those, you know, that depth of the traditions that we inherit, 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000 different ways that we can, that we can embody self governance, whether that's 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:24.000 through a kind of, through things like collective decision making, voting, these 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.001 are one, these are one kind of thing we know how to do. 00:44:26.001 --> 00:44:31.001 Another kind of thing that we could develop learning on is practices like juries, 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.001 you know, things that, yeah, I mean, one of the most important experiences of my 00:44:35.001 --> 00:44:40.000 life, politically, was sitting on a criminal jury in New York City and in 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:46.001 Brooklyn. And, and it just forced me into a kind of embodied conversation that I 00:44:46.001 --> 00:44:53.000 had never been in before. Also, just turning to our own cultural traditions, or 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:59.000 coming into conversation with, with cultural traditions of others and asking, you 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:02.000 know, how would you solve this problem? How would my ancestors solve this 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:07.000 problem? And then exploring what could it look like to have technical systems 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:13.001 capable of representing those of, of, of being spaces in which those practices 00:45:13.001 --> 00:45:17.000 are possible. A lot of, you know, we were talking about the transformative 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:22.001 justice work, a lot of that comes out of ancestral practices, trying to reclaim 00:45:22.001 --> 00:45:28.001 ancestral practices for problem solving. And, and I think that's, 00:45:29.001 --> 00:45:33.001 that's a lot of the work, you know, is recognizing that that these are not new 00:45:33.001 --> 00:45:39.000 challenges. Actually, the problem is, is that we've created, we've created these 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:46.000 technical spaces that actively prevent us from, from continuing to inhabit, you 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:51.000 know, the kinds of practices that our ancestors have used. And, you know, to 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:55.001 continue exploring and building new ones and, and experimenting and modifying 00:45:55.001 --> 00:46:02.001 and, and sharing those learnings out. And, and, you know, so, so often to me, the 00:46:02.001 --> 00:46:08.000 lessons are, are not around how do we totally reinvent ourselves and reinvent the 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:13.000 wheel, but how do we actually recognize how to reground things that we already 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.000 know how to do? And, and how do we recognize that, you know, a lot of the answers 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:25.000 are kind of around us already. They're, they're just misplaced and, and, 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.001 and, and excluded from, from the spaces that need them most. 00:46:29.001 --> 00:46:33.000 Yeah, let's remember some of that knowledge. Thank you for this. 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:40.000 Thank you for this conversation. I was so entranced by it. I kind of forgot I had 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:46.001 a job to do, which was to, to ask you some questions from the audience 00:46:46.001 --> 00:46:53.000 that were coming in. And we have some really, really good ones. One that 00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:57.001 I thought was a really fascinating one, especially at this time of year where, 00:46:57.001 --> 00:47:04.000 you know, we are now bombarded with messaging about governance at the national 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.001 level. There's an election happening and you'd have to be like 00:47:06.001 --> 00:47:08.001 living under a rock to not know this. 00:47:09.001 --> 00:47:16.000 And one of the major challenges or what we see happening is there's this huge 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.000 effort to get people who are basically totally disengaged from the governance 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:26.001 system, from, you know, caring at all really about voting to try to motivate them 00:47:26.001 --> 00:47:32.000 to go vote. And so the question is about like in online spaces, 00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:37.001 what's the secret sauce or what's, what are the right ingredients to really drive 00:47:37.001 --> 00:47:44.000 engagement with governance? I mean, I think it really begins with 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:51.000 asking like governance for what and for whom and, and making sure that it is, 00:47:51.001 --> 00:47:55.001 that it's aligned. I mean, a lot of the problem with participation in, in 00:47:55.001 --> 00:48:02.000 government stuff is that people rightly recognize that this, these decisions are 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.001 not going to serve me no matter what. And the disengagement I think is earned, 00:48:06.001 --> 00:48:11.001 you know, and, and I've seen that a lot in online spaces where I've like, you 00:48:11.001 --> 00:48:16.001 know, crypto projects coming and asking like, why is it that nobody participates 00:48:16.001 --> 00:48:22.000 in my token vote? And it's like, it's obvious because it doesn't affect them. 00:48:23.001 --> 00:48:28.000 Same for why like a corrupt, you know, electric co-op doesn't get people showing 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.000 up at its annual meetings because those people know that the board of directors 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:37.000 doesn't actually listen to them. And, and so I think it's, it's first of all 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.001 asking how much participation do you really need to ask of these people? How do 00:48:40.001 --> 00:48:44.000 you align the participation to actually fit into their lives and honor their 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:49.001 busyness and their, and the value of their time, but also to ensure that we're 00:48:49.001 --> 00:48:55.000 designing systems really around, you know, where the, where, where people, what 00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:02.000 people put in, you know, is reciprocated. And, and that's, you know, that, I had 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:07.001 some folks who were building a cooperative DAO called Collabland. It's a massive 00:49:07.001 --> 00:49:11.001 cooperative using tokens and things like this. And they were describing how they 00:49:11.001 --> 00:49:16.001 think of governance as, as part of their product design. You know, they, they 00:49:16.001 --> 00:49:20.001 think about the design of governance experience the same way they think about 00:49:20.001 --> 00:49:25.001 designing a product that is worth people's time and use. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:32.000 And I think that's, that's one approach that, that in some respects honors the, 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:38.000 you know, the participants more than, than like blaming participants, you know, 00:49:38.001 --> 00:49:41.001 blaming members or whatever for, for not doing enough when 00:49:41.001 --> 00:49:43.001 it's actually not worth their time. 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.001 Can I jump in on this just really briefly too? Like I think, yeah, a hundred 00:49:48.001 --> 00:49:55.000 percent to what Nathan said. I've also been in collectively governed projects 00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.001 like Turakopticon, where there's people who actually would vote on really 00:49:59.001 --> 00:50:03.000 different places in the political spectrum. But when we're actually working on 00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:08.000 something that's like, we all have a stake in and it's concrete and it's not 00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:13.000 mediated through, you know, big, like political care, like charismatic political 00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:18.000 leaders, like wedge issues, we actually can do a lot together and it kind of, so 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:21.001 it's something that really frustrates me as the ways that, you know, I feel like 00:50:21.001 --> 00:50:27.000 the US government has like leaned into misinformation and social media as the 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:31.001 characterization of the problem. And then policy attempts at policy solutions 00:50:31.001 --> 00:50:35.001 that are like laws that basically empower implicitly feudalist social media to 00:50:35.001 --> 00:50:42.000 have even a heavier hand in unilateral and authoritarian like content moderation. 00:50:43.001 --> 00:50:47.001 Because, you know, like that's like misinformation, I don't think is as big a 00:50:47.001 --> 00:50:52.001 problem as a kind of lack of spaces to collectively problem solve and devolve 00:50:52.001 --> 00:50:55.000 like resources and decision making to the people we're 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:56.000 actually doing the thing with. 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.000 So one more, I have a whole list, I'm not going to be able to get to them all, 00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.001 but this is, I guess, a sort of softball question, but I think it would actually 00:51:08.001 --> 00:51:14.000 be really helpful for the whole, everyone on the talk. One person asks, if you 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:19.001 could share just a few bits of wisdom that you've, you have about common 00:51:19.001 --> 00:51:24.000 misconceptions or pitfalls of self-governance, especially to those who are new to 00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:31.000 it. Yeah, thank you. You know, again, we've talked about 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:38.000 one a lot around participation, you know, is don't mismatch your expectations 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:40.001 of participation to the actual problem. 00:51:41.001 --> 00:51:48.000 Another is the role of leadership, is that having collective governance 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:54.001 does not remove the need for leadership and for people to hold vision and to 00:51:54.001 --> 00:52:00.000 play that kind of role. But the real question, I think, at stake here is who are 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:03.000 leaders accountable to? You know, when I talk with people who are building 00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:08.001 democratic organizations, a question I often ask them is like, who do you want to 00:52:08.001 --> 00:52:12.001 be worried about when you're lying awake at night, you know, trying to work 00:52:12.001 --> 00:52:17.000 through a hard challenge? And, you know, you have to make a call that's going to 00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:22.000 affect people in different ways. Who do you want to be to ultimately be 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:28.001 accountable to? That question, I think, is, you know, is more 00:52:28.001 --> 00:52:34.001 important than what I think is often an impulse, which is to imagine that you can 00:52:34.001 --> 00:52:39.001 run communities with as a kind of undifferentiated mass in which they make kind 00:52:39.001 --> 00:52:46.000 of spontaneous decisions and so forth together. I think there's still a need for, 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:52.000 you know, people to, you know, to hold positions of responsibility. 00:52:53.001 --> 00:52:59.000 And again, you know, it's like a lot of the ways of addressing these things are 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:03.000 kind of hidden in plain sight. They're in the things we're doing. It's about 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:07.001 realigning some of the things we're doing to the people who, you know, getting 00:53:07.001 --> 00:53:14.000 the accountability flows right, rather than imagining a kind of total 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.001 reinvention of how we run our organizations in our communities. 00:53:21.001 --> 00:53:23.000 Chris, I think I have time for one 00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.001 more. I think I have time for one more. All right. 00:53:25.001 --> 00:53:30.000 So there was an interest that came in actually at the beginning of the talk. And 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:35.001 I've been pondering the whole time, which is basically getting at differences 00:53:35.001 --> 00:53:38.000 between public and private spaces. 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:43.001 And is that actually a meaningful distinction in online spaces and governance? 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:50.001 And to me, that's super interesting because depending on what room you're in, 00:53:50.001 --> 00:53:54.000 from a legal standpoint, people fight about this all the time because it has a 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:58.001 huge significance for what sort of legal structures apply to governance of that 00:53:58.001 --> 00:54:03.000 space. So I guess the question there is like, how do you view that distinction 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:08.000 and how does that relate to self-governance? Lily, do you have any initial ones? 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:17.001 Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question and it's a hard one, you know, 00:54:17.001 --> 00:54:23.001 in part because I think the, you know, if you take some of these ideas seriously, 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:29.000 they're in some ways kind of moderate and humble, but at the same time, they're 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:35.000 kind of radical because if we were really self-governing our online spaces, we 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:41.001 would be citizens of something that crosses borders, that is not really 00:54:41.001 --> 00:54:47.000 under the jurisdiction of our territorial governments, that kind of breaks a lot 00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:52.001 of the political categories that we're used to. And, you know, I think this is 00:54:52.001 --> 00:54:57.001 something that is profoundly needed. You know, it's something that is why we 00:54:57.001 --> 00:55:01.000 spend so much time in our online lives because it enables us to connect with 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:07.000 people, not simply, you know, in the context of imagined lines in the sand. 00:55:08.001 --> 00:55:15.000 And this also breaks that distinction between private and public, between like 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:21.001 governmental and non-governmental. And I think that's good. I think this 00:55:21.001 --> 00:55:28.000 kind of journey opens the door toward this 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:35.000 concept of non-exclusive sovereignties, of a 00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:40.000 world in which we have overlapping affinities and relationships. I end the book 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:47.000 with a picture that comes from the website native-land.ca, which is a map of 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:52.000 indigenous territories around the world, and they're overlapping. You know, I'm 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:58.001 speaking from the territories of the Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples. The 00:55:58.001 --> 00:56:05.000 land was not exclusively held by one or another. It wasn't easy to distinguish 00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:11.001 between private and public in that context. And the practices of those 00:56:11.001 --> 00:56:17.001 peoples continue that kind of logic. And I think this is, you know, an invitation 00:56:17.001 --> 00:56:24.001 if we can self-govern on our networks to be able to inhabit new kinds of 00:56:24.001 --> 00:56:31.000 political belongings that are actually very old, and to have and to 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:38.000 not have to rely on these made up and militarized borders as the kind of clearest 00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:45.000 dividing lines of our political and social lives. So, you know, in some ways this 00:56:45.001 --> 00:56:49.001 stuff is kind of small, and we're talking about user experience design and, you 00:56:49.001 --> 00:56:56.000 know, tech stuff, but it's also about like reorienting our imagination about 00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:02.000 what we belong to. And I don't think that some of the clean distinctions that 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.000 we're used to fit into that world. 00:57:04.001 --> 00:57:09.001 And can I just, I want to underscore how Nathan put it, and just to give a really 00:57:09.001 --> 00:57:14.000 concrete example, you know, I live here at the border region where there's the 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:18.001 Kumeyaay Nations land, and then there's the United States jurisdiction, and 00:57:18.001 --> 00:57:24.000 there's Mexico's jurisdiction. And we have water pollution that like moves, you 00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.001 know, back and forth across the border that's caused a lot by American-owned 00:57:27.001 --> 00:57:32.000 companies, but that are located in Mexico that are, you know, and then like 00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:35.001 Kumeyaay people like actually know a lot about the kind of ways that the land and 00:57:35.001 --> 00:57:40.001 the water flows and works. You know, these are not, like, why does the solution 00:57:40.001 --> 00:57:45.001 to that need to move through DC at all? I feel like something a lot of people can 00:57:45.001 --> 00:57:50.000 sympathize with. And these questions of like overlapping sovereignties, or even 00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:54.001 also respecting, you know, older sovereignties that were kind of, that were 00:57:54.001 --> 00:58:00.001 ignored, treaties were broken. It's like the more profound kind of possibility of 00:58:00.001 --> 00:58:05.001 what the discussion that Nathan is opening up with a discussion of just our 00:58:05.001 --> 00:58:09.001 online lives, but it applies to much more. And actually, when I was reading the 00:58:09.001 --> 00:58:12.000 book, I was actually thinking about that. And I'm kind of surprised the 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:18.000 conversation got here, and I'm really happy about that. So Chris has shown back 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:23.000 up on the screen, which means it is time for us to wrap up. So thank you both. 00:58:23.001 --> 00:58:27.001 This was such a fantastic conversation, and I hope everyone on the call, if you 00:58:27.001 --> 00:58:29.001 haven't read the book, definitely check it out. 00:58:29.001 --> 00:58:34.000 So thank you. Thank you so much for hosting and facilitating and making this 00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:39.001 space possible. And thank you to everyone who came. Yeah, thanks, everyone, for 00:58:39.001 --> 00:58:45.001 your time, Nathan and Lily, for hosting such a fantastic conversation. Lots of 00:58:45.001 --> 00:58:52.000 love here in the chat. And like Dave, I so wrapped up in the conversation, I 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:58.000 forgot that I had some jobs to do. But here I am, I'm back to help bring this to 00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:03.001 a close. So as Dave mentioned, read the book, and Duncan's going to drop a link 00:59:03.001 --> 00:59:09.001 out into the chat. Please read it online. It's available as an open access 00:59:09.001 --> 00:59:14.000 edition online, you can also buy it in print and get it delivered if you like to 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:19.001 read in print from the booksellers that Nathan lists on his site. So as we wind 00:59:19.001 --> 00:59:23.001 down here, I do want to, in our remaining time, if you need to bounce, go for it. 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:27.001 But I want to tell you about a couple of upcoming events that I think you'll want 00:59:27.001 --> 00:59:32.001 to participate in. So on October 10, we'll have our rescheduled book talk from 00:59:32.001 --> 00:59:36.001 earlier this year that we weren't able to do because of some absences. But with 00:59:36.001 --> 00:59:42.000 author Barbara McQuaid for her best selling book Attack From Within. McQuaid 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:46.000 deals with disinformation and its effect on democracy, which will of course, no 00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:49.001 doubt continue to be a hot topic in October as it is now. 00:59:49.001 --> 00:59:55.001 And so I'm sure you won't want to miss that discussion. And then later in 00:59:55.001 --> 00:59:59.001 October, we'll host two days worth of events for the Internet Archive's annual 00:59:59.001 --> 01:00:05.000 celebration. Up first, on October 22nd, is Doors Open, our annual behind the 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.001 scenes tour and party of the physical archive. 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:11.001 We're opening the doors to an often unseen place where you can tour the physical 01:00:11.001 --> 01:00:17.001 collections of books, film, music, and video in Richmond, California. You'll be 01:00:17.001 --> 01:00:21.000 able to see the life cycle of physical books out from donation to preservation, 01:00:21.001 --> 01:00:26.001 digitization and access. You also get to see samples from generous donations and 01:00:26.001 --> 01:00:30.000 other acquisitions of books and microfiche and records and all the wonderful 01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:35.000 stuff that the Internet Archive has in analog form as it's being digitized and 01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:39.000 made available in digital form. All of that will be on display. It's a really fun 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:43.001 night. So if you're in the Bay Area on October 22nd, you definitely will not want 01:00:43.001 --> 01:00:49.001 to miss that. And then on the next day, on October 23rd, we'll host the Internet 01:00:49.001 --> 01:00:54.000 Archive's annual street party and celebration at our headquarters at 300 Funston 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:59.000 in San Francisco. This year's gathering, Escaping the Memory Hole, explores the 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:03.001 vital role that libraries play in protecting our digital heritage as corporate 01:01:03.001 --> 01:01:09.000 decision makers increasingly control what stays online. MTV News, Cartoon 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:13.001 Network, anyone? Libraries like the Internet Archive stand as guardians of our 01:01:13.001 --> 01:01:17.001 shared digital culture, ensuring that it remains preserved and accessible for 01:01:17.001 --> 01:01:22.000 future generations. So we have tickets available for both in-person attendance, 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:26.000 which runs five to 10. It's a big party. You're want to come. Or you can just 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:31.000 sign on for the virtual live stream from the Great Room, which is at 7pm Pacific, 01:01:31.001 --> 01:01:36.000 10pm Eastern. We know it's late. It'll be archived for replay and also streamed 01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:40.000 on YouTube and other channels. So I do hope you'll join us for those events. 01:01:43.001 --> 01:01:48.000 They're I would like to wrap, as we always do, with commitments and thank yous. 01:01:48.001 --> 01:01:52.001 Today's session is recorded. The links that we've shared, the conversation that 01:01:52.001 --> 01:01:56.000 we've shared, all the resources will be available on the Internet Archive 01:01:56.000 --> 01:02:01.000 tonight. And tomorrow, all registrants will receive an email with a link to the 01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:05.001 recording. As for thank yous, a big thank you, of course, to Nathan and to Lily 01:02:05.001 --> 01:02:10.000 for such a great conversation, to Dave Hanson and Authors Alliance for co 01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:14.000 -hosting. And as always to you, our audience, for showing up, being respectful, 01:02:14.001 --> 01:02:19.000 giving great feedback, great questions, and your time and your enthusiasm today. 01:02:19.001 --> 01:02:23.001 We certainly appreciate it. Final links are out in chat. You can stay up to date 01:02:23.001 --> 01:02:26.001 on everything that's happening at and around the Internet Archive through our 01:02:26.001 --> 01:02:31.001 blog and our events calendar. And to sign off here, I do hope to see you at one 01:02:31.001 --> 01:02:33.000 of our upcoming events. 01:02:33.001 --> 01:02:34.001 Thank you all. Have a great day.